Mainsail Roller Reefing and Mast Halyards

wxt8981 · Dec 13, 2008

Hi.:
If you have the original mast and boom, you don't need to change or remove the roller reefing. It has nothing to do with the jiffy reefing. Second, there should be an about 30cm track in the mast where you assemble the boom with the mast.
Of course you have another mast and boom, then I don't know what you should do,
Wilhelm, V-257

pjacobs55 · Dec 13, 2008

That applies to 'Series I' boats (gold-anodized mast), but the later
Series have a different setup, where the reefing crank is at the
front of the mast and the shaft goes through the mast to the boom,
which has a fixed gooseneck.

But for the 'Series I' you are spot on.

Peter
#1331 'Sin Tacha'

wxt8981 · Dec 14, 2008

Peter, thanks for the info. I thought they were all alike.
Wilhelm, V-257

bobnlesafloat · Dec 15, 2008

Hi there,

Spring Fever's a Series 2 and fitted with jiffy (or in UK parlance - slab) reefing on the original roller reefed boom; there's really no need to remove the roller, indeed we've found two good reasons to keep it: When we lay-up for the winter we spin the boom upside down to keep water from entering vis the sail groove gathering in the boom, secondly if we hinge the handle out from the front of the mast to horizontal or just above, it makes a great spot to hang the solar shower whilst it's warming up.

The only alterations to achieve jiffy reefing on spring fever have been the installation of a block on either side and at the stern of the boom and the installation of a jamming-cleat either side of the boom and about 18" from the mast, these both being for the two reefing lines; plus the forming of reeefing 'horns' either side of the boom, just behind the gosse-neck; these have been formed by bending a single lenth of 6mm stainless steel rod, to form a loop under the boom and then project either side, which is fixed in place by two small semi-circular brackets, tap-screwed to the boom. The boom itself, including the roller mechanism are all retained and unaltered.

Bob.

Vega1447 · Dec 23, 2008

Hi list
if anyone has time to read this I'd be grateful for comments.

I have an eBay-sourced Simrad TP-10 tiller pilot with all the relevant
'bits' (thimble, tiller pin and electrical connections).

The consensus on this list seems to be that when fitting on a Vega it is
best to simply lock the tiller at the required angle (so that the tiller
pin is at the required height) by using lock nuts at the tiller mounting.

I hope to install my TP-10 over the holidays..

Presumably the hole in the tiller for the tiller pin must be drilled with
the tiller raked at the appropriate angle to the deck so that the pin is
vertical when the tiller is angled appropiately.

Any tips on how to accomplish this? (I don't have any bench-mounted drill,
just a conventional hand-held power-drill).

Thanks

John

V 1447 Breakaway

John A. Kinsella Ph: +353-61-202148 (Direct)
+353-61-333644 x 2148 (Switch)
Mathematics Dept. e-mail: John.Kinsella@...
University of Limerick FAX: +353-61-334927
IRELAND Web: John Kinsella's Website

D_Chown · Dec 23, 2008

John,

I've glued several penny washers under the bronze tiller casting (put them where the timber ends) to permanently jack it up - that way you know it will not slip down or be at the wrong height when using the TP, also you can leave it loose enough to hold it higher whilst helming manually e.g. when standing up.

My TP22 sits aft of the locker top and therefore the tiller would be too high if jacked up so that the pin went directly into it. So I have lengthened the pin with a removable extension, which is a 6" length of stainless tube, 1/4" ID, 1/2" OD. The standard tiller pin is epoxied in one end and a M10 thread tapped in the other. This screws removably onto a 10mm screw which goes vertically up through the tiller (i.e. it is vertical and therefore not perpendicular to the tiller).

Now to answer your question - no problem drilling this using a hand power drill, just take care and use a smaller pilot drill first. The bigger issue is getting the correct setup so that you drill in the right place.

HTH!

pjacobs55 · Dec 23, 2008

Jack,
I'm really interested to see what you do at the mast head. Can you
post some pictures on the Yahoo site as the project progresses?
Thanks!
Peter
#1331 'Sin Tacha'

Vega1447 · Dec 24, 2008

Hi David
thanks for the reply. Very helpful.

Some follow on questions - why did you decide to position the TP aft of
the locker cover?

Put it another way, do you think that the recommended positioning doesn't
allow the TP to rotate the rudder through a sufficient angle?

And the related question - would my TP10 have enough oomph to handle this
fixing location?

How did you decide on the fixing location that you chose?

And finally, did you try the standard position first and find it
unsatisfactory?

Thanks and please don't bother replying till after Christmas!

John

V1447 Breakaway

John A. Kinsella Ph: +353-61-202148 (Direct)
+353-61-333644 x 2148 (Switch)
Mathematics Dept. e-mail: John.Kinsella@...
University of Limerick FAX: +353-61-334927
IRELAND Web: John Kinsella's Website

D_Chown · Dec 24, 2008

Hi John,

Yes the recommended/standard position (which I have cup and pin installed for as this was how it was done initially) has a few drawbacks: as you say the TP can't fully swing the tiller which reduces its ability to cope with weather/lee helm. It can't make use of its power for lack of travel. You also can't get into the locker whilst it is in use and finally the TP's control system seems to be optimised for a rudder that has a considerably greater effect than the Vega's so even at max gain setting it under-reacts. I actually have the tiller jacked up so that with this mounting the pin which is mounted in the standard way into the tiller is at the right height (therefore needing an extension for the pin further aft).

I decided on the current position by ensuring that the TP could swing the tiller "fully" i.e. to within a few cm of touching the locker lids. This has proven to work well especially in tougher conditions.

The TP22 has sufficient power - and the forces can be very great! - I'm not sure about the TP10 but if not it will only be lacking under severe weather/lee helm I'd have thought. When you buy your first spare one you can compare!

Happy Christmas to all!

pjacobs55 · Dec 24, 2008

I installed a RayMarine tiller pilot a few years ago. I tightened the tiller to shaft connection so the tiller stays at the correct height by itself. It is not so tight that I can't easily adjust it by hand, just pushing the tiller up or down. That was easy. I made a little wooden wedge that fits under the tiller connection to get the tiller angle right but don't have to use it. I wouldn't want to lock my tiller into any angle, because among other reasons it is nice to put it vertical and out of the way when dining etc.

Drilling for the pin isn't all that critical either. I just eyeballed mine and drilled it with a good drill and a sharp bit and it is fine. On mine the angle doesn't have to be at all exact for the pilot shaft to fit snugly on the pin.

If at all possible mount the pilot so you can open the locker with the pilot in place. Remember most of the time the pilot is in use you will be motoring and the strains that come on the pilot will be pretty small. Not to say you don't want a robust mount, but you may be able to fudge some of the distance and angle requirements in the mounting instructions.Nicholas Walsh
Nicholas H. Walsh P.A.
111 Commercial Street
Portland Maine 04101
Tel. 207/772-2191
fax 207/774-3940

This email was sent from the law firm of Nicholas H. Walsh P.A. It may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If you suspect that you were not intended to receive this email, please delete it and notify us as soon as possible. Thank you.
From: John A. Kinsella
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 6:34 PM
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AlbinVega] Fitting a Simrad TP-10Hi list
if anyone has time to read this I'd be grateful for comments.

I have an eBay-sourced Simrad TP-10 tiller pilot with all the relevant
'bits' (thimble, tiller pin and electrical connections).

The consensus on this list seems to be that when fitting on a Vega it is
best to simply lock the tiller at the required angle (so that the tiller
pin is at the required height) by using lock nuts at the tiller mounting.

I hope to install my TP-10 over the holidays..

Presumably the hole in the tiller for the tiller pin must be drilled with
the tiller raked at the appropriate angle to the deck so that the pin is
vertical when the tiller is angled appropiately.

Any tips on how to accomplish this? (I don't have any bench-mounted drill,
just a conventional hand-held power-drill).

Thanks

John

V 1447 Breakaway

John A. Kinsella Ph: +353-61-202148 (Direct)
+353-61-333644 x 2148 (Switch)
Mathematics Dept. e-mail: John.Kinsella@...
University of Limerick FAX: +353-61-334927
IRELAND Web: John Kinsella's Website

pjacobs55 · Dec 24, 2008

Ditto what Nicholas says.
I run the exact same setup. I have a Raymarine ST2000 and a backup
TP10. They both work just fine (sailing or motoring) located aft of
the locker lid, despite the dire warnings in the installation manual.

I find the Vega nicely balanced ... not too much weather helm. The
aft positioning of the autopilot allows more travel on the tiller. I
didn't need to extend my pin. It's a ball-socket mount, so exact
alignment isn't critical.

I have a TP10 manual in .pdf format, if you (or anyone else) need
one. I find it works a lot better when set up correctly.

Happy Holidays to all!

Peter
#1331 'Sin Tacha'

Vega1447 · Dec 29, 2008

Hello David and all.

Thanks for the answers!

I went to the boat today and did the electrical install - easy for TP10.

But two things stopped me drilling the holes in the side deck for the cup
and in the tiller for the tiller pin.

First the TP10 manual says that the distance from the center of the cup to
the tiller pin is 59.5 cm when the ram is half way out/in.

The manual says that the travel is 25 cm which I confirmed.

But when I extended the ram by 12.5 cm from its retracted position the
centre cup to tiller pin distance is 58.5 cm, not 59.5!

I could ignore the discrepancy and install the unit in the
half-extended position but the manual is very insistent on getting the
dimensions right!My second question is more of an observation: the top of the tiller pin
(once installed) describes an arc of a large circle as the tiller moves
port and stbd with the swivel clamped. So (of course) it does not move in
a straight line at a constant height from the deck and at right angles
to the long axis of the boat.

My question is: Is there enough "play" designed into the TP (the bolt that
sits into the cup swivels about a pivot that is "athwart" the unit) to
allow the ram to stay engaged with the tiller pin?

Surely the further aft the TP is installed the smaller the circle and the
greater the "play" required?

Thanks to all for their patience - I really don't want to drill
unnecessary holes!

John

V1447 Breakaway

John A. Kinsella Ph: +353-61-202148 (Direct)
+353-61-333644 x 2148 (Switch)
Mathematics Dept. e-mail: John.Kinsella@...
University of Limerick FAX: +353-61-334927
IRELAND Web: John Kinsella's Website

pjacobs55 · Dec 29, 2008

Hi John,
I've added five photos of my TP10 installation to the Yahoo Photo
Album titled "Vega #1331".

Imho, as there are so many different rudder configurations and
geometry, it is impossible to specify an "exact" location for the
mounting points for a Tiller Pilot. I've violated the rules (within
reason) on several installations, to fit given conditions, and had no
problems.

The main thing is the unit has enough leverage to move the tiller
against a bit of weather helm, yet at the same time has sufficient
travel to effectively steer the boat.

The original installation on my boat had the mounting pins in the
locker lids on BOTH sides, as a previous owner sailed with such heavy
weather helm the poor Tiller Pilot could not extend enough to steer
the boat. When he tacked, the Tiller Pilot was switched to the
weather side and reconfigured to work in the opposite direction!

To answer your two questions:
I installed the mounting hole just far enough away from the cockpit
wall so that I could swivel the unit aft, parallel to the cockpit
wall, when not in use. It's not exactly centered with the ram half
extended, but it's close. The hole is 2 1/2" aft of the locker lid.

The arc of the tiller: there is enough travel in the ball/socket
joint of the shaft/tiller pin to accommodate this movement. The only
times I have lost the connection is when I've knocked it off myself,
messing about in the cockpit.

The setup I use also works well with the Raymarine ST1000 or ST2000
AutoPilots. My main unit is the ST2000, with the TP10 as the spare.

As a side note, I also found a source of the male and female
Autopilot plugs from an electronics supplier in Texas, U.S.

Hope this helps!

Peter
#1331 'Sin Tacha'

Vega1447 · Dec 29, 2008

Peter, thanks very much.
The photos are a big help.

Your pic #8 suggests that the pin is at right angles to the tiller - so
the plastic head of the ram is rotated slightly so that the head of the
ram sits snugly on the pin?

So tiller pin when in use is *not* perpendicular to the cockpit sole?

If I'm seeing the pic right this makes a lot of sense.

Now to see if Significant Other will let me disappear *again* out to the
boat!

Again thanks,

John
V1447 Breakaway

John A. Kinsella Ph: +353-61-202148 (Direct)
+353-61-333644 x 2148 (Switch)
Mathematics Dept. e-mail: John.Kinsella@...
University of Limerick FAX: +353-61-334927
IRELAND Web: John Kinsella's Website

pjacobs55 · Dec 29, 2008

Hi John,
The pin is in the vertical plane when the tiller is in poition to use
the TillerPilot, not at right-angles to the tiller. Sorry, not shown
too well, but photo 9 shows it a bit.
Yes, it *is* perpendicular to the sole when in use.

Peter
#1331 'Sin Tacha'

Vega1447 · Dec 30, 2008

Thanks!

John
V1447 Breakaway

John A. Kinsella Ph: +353-61-202148 (Direct)
+353-61-333644 x 2148 (Switch)
Mathematics Dept. e-mail: John.Kinsella@...
University of Limerick FAX: +353-61-334927
IRELAND Web: John Kinsella's Website