Main Trim

[BarryL]

Hi Don (and everyone else),Any comments on the attached pic?The wind was about 10 kts apparent.We were sailing close hauled.I think the halyard was probably too tight. When Iraised the sail the wind was stronger, closer to 15 kts than 10, and I never slacked it after thewind got lighter.thanks,Barry

 

[Roger1250]

at first glance

I would say at first glance that you need more halyard tension, and more outhaul tension. The belly (draft) of the sail is too far forward and there are wrinkles in the luff. I can't see the boom so cannot comment about its position, although I do note that there is no jib or genny. From the shape and direction of your flag however, I would think that you would want to have a flatter sail.

 

[RichH]

Hooked leech.....

To me this isnt a set/trim/shaping problem ...........How 'old' is the sail? If you're having 'problems' ... as a sailmaker of sorts I possibly see a correction that may be needed to correct this sail. If Im right, sail trim and shaping wont help much. Your boat probably develops a LOT of weather helm and heel despite all that you do to correct the sail shape, am I right? There is a crease ('girt') at the top running into the head board .... suggesting that a too-tight mainsheet is over stressing the sail (could also be a unimportant sailmakers error). In the same vein, the leech seems 'hooked' to windward (also indicating an overly tight mainsheet) - the free flying ensign and the leech are at much differing angles of attack. If you had tell tales applied to the leech, it would be easier to give an accurate answer ... I'd bet that leech tell tales would be sucked over to the leeward side.  The entry portion of the luff seems straight/flat suggesting a loose to medium tight halyard. The draft position seems to be at 40-50% of cord length and the draft is *very* full - a very slow but 'powerful' shape. For me this set up / shape would be for high pinching into deep/steep shop ... or accelerating out of a tack. With respect to those little 'fan' creases along the luff, I also must ask what is the 'age' of the sail. With all the above, and being my own sailmaker, I'd check/measure the luff length versus what was originally delivered as it appears that a **dimension has changed**. I also see uneven luff tension distribution suggesting a dirty/sticky sail track in the mast .... rubbing a plain wax candle in the slot and on the slides would probably do 'wonders'. If this sail has a three strand dacron boltrope in a sleeve at the luff, all the above items and the shape in your picture suggests that the bolt rope may have 'shrunken' over time and needs to be 'eased'/corrected. Three strand dacron is great for boltropes, except for one thing: every time you stress such a rope it gets fatter and shorter and over a long time all these little changes add up --- to a drastically shortened luff. After many repeated 'stretches' the sail's luff will actually become less than was originally designed and you get: over draft, draft aft and a hooked leech. Typically such boltropes need to be readjusted every year or two to re-establish the correct luff dimension. If the boltrope has actually shrunken, then the 'preload' needed to get the luff to correct shape will be extreme .... needing very heavy/extreme halyard tension to make this sail take better shape and perform well. If this sail has a "tape" luff instead of a boltrope ... you probably need a major 'overhaul'. This is not a 'blown-out' sail. If this sail has a luff boltrope, the 'fix' is easy if you have a sailmakers needle and some sail twine. Soooooo ... how old is this sail? ... and do you still have the 'as delivered' dimensions? Temporarily, you can drastically over-tension the halyard, but this will give you a 'rounded' luff .... only a problem with overlapping jibs. Am I close? ;-)

 

[Ken Juul]

Trim

It's hard to tell from the picture but is the topping lift slack? Looks like it starts on the lee side at the top, goes to the windward about the top batten, the back to the lee side about even with the flag. If slack it is normally blown to the lee side the whole length of the sail.

 

[Paul Akers]

A Quick Observation

Your main halyard tension seems a bit loose (check the wrinkles in the luff). Also, the main may be stretched (or even too long) because it looks like the headboard (and the halyard) are pulled all the way up the mast with no more room for trim. That may just be the start of the trim problem.

 

[RichH]

Luff dimensions on N28-II

Typical luffs on a Newport 28-II should be close to 38ft. 6 inches. The angle that the boom should make with the mast is 88 degrees. If the boom end is lower than the gooseneck when the sail is raised, this would further indicate a shrunken boltrope. Normal 'preload' on such a boltrope would be about 4.5 inches .... meaning you normally need to add 4" of stretch with the halyard to make the sail take a good shape at 15 kt. windspeed. Betcha youre shrunken to about 6 inches of 'preload' on the boltrope and the luff will measure shorter than 38ft. 2 inches. At the dock at a light wind day, raise the sail and apply 'normal' halyard tension, then get off the boat and at a distance and from the side, look to see where the position of the boom end is with respect to the gooseneck. If the boom end is lower .... then the boltrope needs to be eased to get the sail back into a decent shape.

 

[BarryL]

Thanks and More information

Hi Guys,Thanks for all the comments. This is my third year sailing. I am trying, but I know I have a lot to learn. I have been reading books (including Don's) and trying what I read when I get on the water. However, things like 'tension halyard' are difficult to properly do without someone or something telling you when you have the proper tension.I bought this boat in June of last year. I don't know how old the sails are, but the main is probably original (1986). In the winter I took it to a local sailmaker to have it cleaned, evaluated, and batten pockets repaired (they were torn). The sailmaker told me the sail was servicable, but not great (he did tell me that one of my headsails was worn out and the other was OK). He didn't mention anything about the bolt rope in the luff sleeve, but I think it is regular 3 strand. Next time I'm on the boat I will try to raise the sail and observe the angle of the boom.This boat doesn't develop a lot of weather helm (or at least I don't think it does) but it does heel more than I think it should, but I don't really have a good reference point. It is stiffer than my previous boat, a Catalina 22, but that's not surprising. Regarding the mainsheet tension, since we were close hauled, pointing just about as high as possible, I had the mainsheet very tight, and the traveler centered. The boom was centered over the boat.Regarding the draft, the sail is loose footed, and the outhaul has a two part tackle. However,when I try to tension the outhaul, the 'car' hits the end of the boom before the foot of the sail gets very tight. When the pic was taken, the car was about 1" from the end of the boom. I could have tightened it that much more. Would 1" have made a significant difference in the draft depth?If I understand everyone, for the conditions I was sailing in (10 kt wind, relatively flast water, sailing close hauled), I had Too much draftNot enough halyard tensionToo tight a mainsheetPerhaps not enough slack in the topping liftThere is a grommet near the tack of the sail. I assume that is for a cunningham. Can I just thread a line throug there, cleated to the mast,to test the shrunken boltrope idea? I could loosely raise the main, tie the cunningham line in, then really raise the main.Again, thanks for all the comments. This really helps!Barry

 

[RichH]

Grommet near the tack......

(Again) if there is a boltrope, pulling tension on that grommet (cunningham) will do exactly the opposite of whats needed to correct the shape and get that leech to 'lay-down'. I suggest that you first set up the halyard as tight as you can possibly make it ... probably one to two inches 'extra stretch' and see if that leech doesnt take a 'flatter' shape. Over tensioning the luff will make the draft move forward and will give the luff a 'rounded' shape. As I 'see it', you need to severely over tension that boltrope (by hard halyard tension) so that it gets close to its original dimension. This may be 'technical' but may be of value for you: A boltrope is purposely made shorter than the luff dimension - typically shortened by about 1 inch for every 10 ft. of luff length. This is called 'preload' and is 'key' to the 'adjustability' of the sail for differing wind conditions. So, for the sail to be at a good shape at its upper windrange of 15-18 knots windspeed the (new) sail would need about 3-4 inches of additional 'stretch' on the boltrope to allow it to get near its 'designed' target shape. If the boltrope has shrunken then you must add additinal stretch (by halyard) to stretch the boltrope to its 'intended' dimension ..... or you wind up with a very flat luff shape, draft aft, deep draft , and a hooked leech. To initially 'set' such a sail - for example when the wind is blowing 15 kts. (true) - raise the sail with very little halyard tension, then take note of a 'spot' on the halyard vs. the mast and give addition tension so that the halyard additional tightens about 3 inches of halyard length .... this will adjust the 'preload' so that the sail will near its 15 kt. design shape. You have to stretch out that 'preloaded' bolt rope. Next time out, simply 'over-tension' the halyard ('bar tight') and see what happens. Then make your further shaping adjustments 'from' that initial tension. If that works but the winch pressure to do this is extreme, then consider to take the sail to a sailmaker and consult to have the boltrope 'eased' so that the 'design' is a much flatter shape .... better for light winds and high speed sailing (but not for chop).Hope this helps.

 

[Howard19003]

Luff length and other stuff

Hi Barry, I see several areas needing adjustment.  First, as Rich has already mentioned is the luff tension. To check this the sail should be hoisted to its top black band. I can't see from the photo if you have one or not. If you don't then attach a tape to the head of the sail and measure down to the boom your P dim. (32.5'). I assume you have the correct mainsail on your boat! If you can get full hoist with just a little tension your luff is probably OK, and you need to reeve a line to the Cunningham cringle to get proper luff tension. Taking it back to the cockpit is usually best for easy adjustment. If you can't get full hoist, a shrunken bolt rope, as Rich says, is probably in need of being remedied. I replaced the 3 strand external bolt rope on an old sail that was in otherwise good condition and it restored its draft. Second is leach/draft shape. I think the battens may be too stiff, or not tapered. Leach tension is high and is not producing a good aerodynamic shape. In 10 to 15 kts of wind the leach should be a little twisted off, and the battens should be deflected giving the sail a continuously curved shape, getting a bit flatter near the leach. Third, the N-28 is a headsail driven boat. The majority of the force to windward is delivered by the headsail, so the main has to be seen in that context. Lastly,I would guess when this picture was taken you were sailing above closehauled or maybe under power. The angle of attack is wrong as the luff telltales show, so it's really not easy to tell too much from it. Regards, Howard.

 

[Don Guillette]

Barry L: There is not much I can add to what that has already been said. I don't think the halyard is tight enough as it looks like there are scollops in the luff.I know it is hard to get the complete sail in the picture but the more sail you can get the easier it is to tell what is going on.I do like the fact that you are flying the American flag. More sailors should fly the stars and stripes. It is patriotic but more importantly it drives Americans, who live in the greatest country in the world but who do not love our country, nuts.

 

[Didereaux]

Yes, good to fly the flag...in the proper location

Don G wrot:>I do like the fact that you are flying the American flag. More sailors should fly the stars and stripes. It is patriotic but more importantly it drives Americans, who live in the greatest country in the world but who do not love our country, nuts.<But the position shown-on the starboard spreader- is the coutesy location to fly the flag of the country you are visiting. The taffrail is the proper location for flying the flag of ones own country....or so I understand it anyways. hehdid

 

[Alan]

Didereaux

Living in this country does not mean agreeing with everthing that our government does. If fact, we can be truly ashammed of many of the things that it does. However, this is not a sign of disloyalty. Flying the flag for patriotic reasons is a very good thing, flying the flag as if thumbing your nose at those who disagree with your view is a shameful thing.

 

[Howard19003]

Oh Boy! It's the sails not the flag

I read some where that the quickest way to get killed is to mediate an argument between Texan and a Yankee. Oh well, live dangerously. All BarryL really wanted was advise about his sail, not where to put his his flag. How do y'all know he's not a visitor to our shores, or even has a taffrail. Taffrail, eh?..is that located on the poop deck? : ) smile, Howard.

 

[Osprey17220]

The Leech Line

It's good to see another N28 owner out there...) Mine is ten years older but the rig didn't change, just the keel.My sail looks alot like yours some of the time...It's seems that the leech line keeps shrinking causing the very full deep shape. Check the Leech line! Make sure you have the main sheet and the boom vang eased before you hoist the main. I have done that and it's embarassing...(I also have a feeling that it is hard to get the front third of the main to look like it is pulling.It could be due to the large mast section.Even when I have the sail set to my liking the front third of the sail will have a bubble from the 155 backwinding it. My sailmaker says not to worry about it. Before everybody jumps on me, I will say that my sail is old and close to blown out.The cunningham will help bring the draft forward. I have to use mine in heaver air because I can't tension the luff enough with the halyard, it hits the masthead sheave.You can also ease the bolt rope at the tack buy cutting the stitching that has it seized to the tack. This will let it silde up the luff as needed. this is a poor mans fix but effective, I have done this with 3 of my sails and have had no troubles..The N28 is very much geona driven, many times we have raced too short handed to fly the spinn and kept up too much head sail for the winward leg, just so we gould still be fast on the reach or run. In these conditions I dump the main to the point that it is hardly doing anything but making noise. It is hard on the sail but keeps the boat up and fast. If you sail the N28 with the rail in the water you won't be fast. The boat is a little tender at first but then seems to settle in.I know there will be others that won't nessarally agree with some of my comments and I know that if I had lots of money to throw at it that things would be done differently, but we have won more than our share of PHRF races.you have a great boat design, keep the main leech open and your bottom clean and you will kill them in any thing under 8kGood LuckJimmie

 

[BarryL]

Thanks to all!

Hello everyone,Thanks for all the comments. I don't mind Didereaux commenting on the flag. Anyway, I learned a few things I was doing wrong: hoisting the main when the main sheet and topping lift are both tight. I will make sure to ease the sheet before raising the main. I don't think the boltrope is the problem, the boom is not lower than the gooseneck (it angles up slightly).I will ease the topping lift moreI will tension the main halyward moreNext time I get a chance I will take another pic and post it for comparison.regarding N 28's there are at least 1/2 a dozen in Mt. Sinai and Port Jeff Harbor alone. There are two within 1/2 mile of my mooring. I think they are nice boats and a great value.Thanks again,Barry

 

[Don Guillette]

BarryL: Don't just ease the topping lift, make it totally loose. The only purpose of the topping lift is to support the boom when the main is flaked. It is not a sail trim control. Having sail that, that is not exactly correct as it can be used in very light wind to put some slight belly in the sail but that is it. On all other points of sail, the topping lift should be flapping in the breeze.

 

[Didereaux]

Don n Howard re flag

Hey guys read all the thread, okay? Don brought up the flag, I figured, okay it's now an issue. I stand on what I posted as correct. Not denigrating, nor belittling nor even 'challenging' and certainly in no way personal...unlike BOTH your comments. sheesh! Want have pissing contests go to the nearest pre-school sandbox!so there, pbfffft!

 

[Sinbad]

Didereaux

Methinks you are the one who started this pissing contest with your first post....I guess more than a few sailors don't agree with your politics.....or your flag etiquette.....pssssss

 

[Wanderer138]

Lift yer eyepatch, Sinbad

Look more closely at Didereaux's first post. Here's what he wrote (copied and pasted for convenience):"Don G wrot:>I do like the fact that you are flying the American flag. More sailors should fly the stars and stripes. It is patriotic but more importantly it drives Americans, who live in the greatest country in the world but who do not love our country, nuts.<But the position shown-on the starboard spreader- is the coutesy location to fly the flag of the country you are visiting. The taffrail is the proper location for flying the flag of ones own country....or so I understand it anyways. hehdid "The ">" and "<" indicate a direct quote of the last paragraph of Don's post. Didereaux added the paragraph about the position of the Stars and Stripes on the starboard spreader, a point of etiquette about which he is correct. No politics there.PeterH23 "Raven"

 

[Wanderer138]

More notes for Barry on mainsail trim

When raising the mainsail, the mainsheet and vang should be slack but the topping lift should be tight (it supports the boom until the sail is fully raised). This allows you to raise the sail without any restrictions. Once the sail is all the way up, ease the topping lift until it is nice and loose, then tighten the vang and mainsheet as needed.If the mainsail track is dirty, not all the halyard tension works its way down to the tack of the sail and the luff (leading edge) is not properly tensioned. There should be a ring (cringle) in the luff about midway between the first reef cringle and the tack of the sail. This is for the cunningham or downhaul. It enables you to pull down on the luff and tension it from the BOTTOM, which is the part of the luff where the halyard is LEAST effective. Besides, if the sail is all the way to the masthead, tightening the halyard won't do anything more for you.There are several ways to rig a cunningham; the Harken catalog is full of ideas. Most people run it down to a turning block at the mast base then back to a cleat at the cockpit, so you can adjust the luff tension quickly in response to changes in windspeed.To set basic luff tension, raise the mainsail all the way, ease the topping lift then tension the cunningham until the horizontal creases/wrinkles disappear. If they reappear when sailing closehauled, add a little more luff tension. Note that tensioning the cunningham will put a little bit of a horizontal fold in the luff of the sail below the cringle. That's normal.Looking at the photo, your trim doesn't seem to be too far off. Although the topping lift could be a bit looser, it seems OK. I'm assuming the tight line to the ledt is the backstay. Judging by the draft stripes just above and below your flag, the chord of the middle of the sail is almost parallel with the airflow over the flag. That's OK. However, the lower part of the sail seems hooked to windward and the upper part seems to off to leeward a bit. Easing the mainsheet slightly should fix that.Finally, I tend to trim more by feel of the boat than by appearance of the sails. I have no wind indicator, but I do have telltales on the leech of the mainsail. My boat sails fastest with less than 15 degrees of heel and just a touch of weather helm, so I trim until I get that. My sails look wrong sometimes because wind speed and direction do vary, but I cam consistently manage to sail fast and comfortably and that's what counts.If you haven't already done so, go buy Don's book. It will move you past 75% of the sailors out there. Once you've mastered that, take a look at the North U. Sail Trim manual. Good luck and keep working at it.PeterH23 "Raven"