Don, Everything I have read on trimming the main when sailing dead downwind has confused me a bit. Some sources say to let the main all the way out; others advise that you are still strying to cup the wind with the sail, so keep some curve in it. This past year I crewed on an X-95 for some club races. The skipper, when sailing dead downwind, routinely let the main virtually all the way out. This placed the sail on the aft stay, such that the sail was neither flat not cupping the wind; the sail was actually significantly creased by the stay. It seemed to me that this was poor trim, and that the outermost portion of the sail had to be spilling wind. When I brought this to the skipper's attention, he said that the numbers (boat speed) don't lie, and that the boat did better with the trim just as he had it. It occurred to me that none of us is capable of constantly steering the boat exactly downwind, and that there are fluctuations form side to side each moment. Could it be that this awful looking trim was the best compromise? I should add that we were in light to moderate air.
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Main Sail on the spreaders
If the X-Yacht rig was creating a crease, imagine how the Hunter swept back spreaders would look. Seriously though, your skipper was right and he probably had the teltales flowing off the leach of the main sail with a Genoa or spinnaker curving the air flow around the leward side of the main. On my Hunter 28.5, I can lay the boom out till it touches the shrouds, then trim it in an inch and the Main is up against the B&R rigging and spreaders. However,if the teltales are kept flowing that's what you need to sail as close to 'down wind' as you want. You might also put the clew of the Genoa on a spinnaker pole out to windward, put a preventer on the main and sail wing on wing. As an option, you can also elect to 'heat it up' by reaching a little higher for more speed and jibe back and forth from broad reach to broad reach to the down wind mark. My focus would be to keep the air flow attached over both sails. Stu Sauer, Celebration II
If the X-Yacht rig was creating a crease, imagine how the Hunter swept back spreaders would look. Seriously though, your skipper was right and he probably had the teltales flowing off the leach of the main sail with a Genoa or spinnaker curving the air flow around the leward side of the main. On my Hunter 28.5, I can lay the boom out till it touches the shrouds, then trim it in an inch and the Main is up against the B&R rigging and spreaders. However,if the teltales are kept flowing that's what you need to sail as close to 'down wind' as you want. You might also put the clew of the Genoa on a spinnaker pole out to windward, put a preventer on the main and sail wing on wing. As an option, you can also elect to 'heat it up' by reaching a little higher for more speed and jibe back and forth from broad reach to broad reach to the down wind mark. My focus would be to keep the air flow attached over both sails. Stu Sauer, Celebration II
No down wind for me
I always sail a few degrees off down wind and do a gently gybe every so often.. Get there a lot quicker.
I always sail a few degrees off down wind and do a gently gybe every so often.. Get there a lot quicker.
Agree with Mark
DDW is not the best no matter how your main is trimed. I always sail at a little angle to heat it up and gybe as necessary. This would be with a chute up or with a jib. The main sail laying on the spreaders is not a pretty sight, and encourages damage to the sail.
DDW is not the best no matter how your main is trimed. I always sail at a little angle to heat it up and gybe as necessary. This would be with a chute up or with a jib. The main sail laying on the spreaders is not a pretty sight, and encourages damage to the sail.
Whisker Pole
Using a whisker pole and setting the clew of the headsail out to windward is by far the best downwind solution. The headsail is no longer blanketed and the increased speed is dramatic. The best solution of course is a spinaker. Dave
Using a whisker pole and setting the clew of the headsail out to windward is by far the best downwind solution. The headsail is no longer blanketed and the increased speed is dramatic. The best solution of course is a spinaker. Dave
Boom to Shrouds?
Is it really safe to sail dead down wind with the boom all the way out to the shrouds? Imagine what would happen in the event of an accidental jibe. It could break a shroud, maybe even cause a dis-masting.
Is it really safe to sail dead down wind with the boom all the way out to the shrouds? Imagine what would happen in the event of an accidental jibe. It could break a shroud, maybe even cause a dis-masting.
DDW alternative: wing-on-wing with a staysail
Please use the link to see "Rivendel II" running comfortably DDW near the Pacific equator in 1998, under a wing-on-wing genoa/staysail set-up. The nearly centered and flattened (2nd reef) main serves as an important roll brake (similar to the way trawlers sometimes use their sail). This reduces the danger of "dipping" one of the two whisker poles in the drink. Compared to "heating it up" (heading up 10-30 degrees), this arrangement has the following potential advantages: (1) allows the vessel to keep surfing in the swells w/o severe yawing (provided wind and swells are well aligned), (2) no chafing of the main on the spreaders, (3) no danger of jibing, (4) in the tradewind belt, this sailplan can steer itself for days on end; with or without a strong autopilot or windvane. The disadvantage is, of course, that one needs a second headsail and a second whiskerpole (in our case, we simply took the inner pole from our telescoping whiskerpole to give the staysail its own pole). Have fun! Flying Dutchman
Please use the link to see "Rivendel II" running comfortably DDW near the Pacific equator in 1998, under a wing-on-wing genoa/staysail set-up. The nearly centered and flattened (2nd reef) main serves as an important roll brake (similar to the way trawlers sometimes use their sail). This reduces the danger of "dipping" one of the two whisker poles in the drink. Compared to "heating it up" (heading up 10-30 degrees), this arrangement has the following potential advantages: (1) allows the vessel to keep surfing in the swells w/o severe yawing (provided wind and swells are well aligned), (2) no chafing of the main on the spreaders, (3) no danger of jibing, (4) in the tradewind belt, this sailplan can steer itself for days on end; with or without a strong autopilot or windvane. The disadvantage is, of course, that one needs a second headsail and a second whiskerpole (in our case, we simply took the inner pole from our telescoping whiskerpole to give the staysail its own pole). Have fun! Flying Dutchman
Second DDW alternative...
A second alternative is running wing-and-wing with a jib and ASM. The main is centered, or lowered. The Hunters fly DDW very fast in this mode. To answer Mike...the boom should never be on the shrouds for the very reason you listed...a gybe can take out a shroud if it hits hard. I lost a mainsheet a couple of years ago, and it gybed before I had control again. It hit the shrouds and broke two of three bolts in a chainplate. The rig stood, but it sure complained. Steve
A second alternative is running wing-and-wing with a jib and ASM. The main is centered, or lowered. The Hunters fly DDW very fast in this mode. To answer Mike...the boom should never be on the shrouds for the very reason you listed...a gybe can take out a shroud if it hits hard. I lost a mainsheet a couple of years ago, and it gybed before I had control again. It hit the shrouds and broke two of three bolts in a chainplate. The rig stood, but it sure complained. Steve
Main Trim Sailing Dead Down Wind
All of the comments are good ones. I have a couple of points to add. NEVER, EVER sail down wind without a preventer rigged. Secondly, I like the downwind leg, especially here in Long Beach, because the majority of racers always sail DDW (which is extremely slow unless it is blowing about 90 knots - then DDW is OK)and it especially easy for me to pick off boats. There is not a lot written about downwind sailing probably because mates think its a pretty slow point of sail and they are content to just poke along, but if you want to get somewhere in a reasonable amount of time or are racing I have some material that might be of help. Go to the middle of forum page and you see a section called Don Guillett's reference library and you'll find an article on downwind sailing that you can print. When I put the article together, I knew I had just about everything written on the subject because the material started repeating itself. If you are a racer or just a cruiser who wants the give the guy sailing next to you a run for his money, you should try the principles I've outlined. If your a middle of the pack racer, and the 2 or 3 guys in front are sailing DDW, I guarantee you'll pick both of them off if your follow my advise. Next time your out on a practice run with your crew, try my suggestions and see if they work for you.
All of the comments are good ones. I have a couple of points to add. NEVER, EVER sail down wind without a preventer rigged. Secondly, I like the downwind leg, especially here in Long Beach, because the majority of racers always sail DDW (which is extremely slow unless it is blowing about 90 knots - then DDW is OK)and it especially easy for me to pick off boats. There is not a lot written about downwind sailing probably because mates think its a pretty slow point of sail and they are content to just poke along, but if you want to get somewhere in a reasonable amount of time or are racing I have some material that might be of help. Go to the middle of forum page and you see a section called Don Guillett's reference library and you'll find an article on downwind sailing that you can print. When I put the article together, I knew I had just about everything written on the subject because the material started repeating itself. If you are a racer or just a cruiser who wants the give the guy sailing next to you a run for his money, you should try the principles I've outlined. If your a middle of the pack racer, and the 2 or 3 guys in front are sailing DDW, I guarantee you'll pick both of them off if your follow my advise. Next time your out on a practice run with your crew, try my suggestions and see if they work for you.
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