Main sheet cleat options- running to rear

[bonkle]

Here's a pic of my 1984 Hunter 31. This isn't specific to the boat though. It's a pretty standard setup and most likely stock. I want to run the main sheet to the rear of the cabin roof. The easiest option is to use the winch and brake, but I really don't want to do that. I like being able to hold the sheet and control it if I so desire. I'd like to use a swivel cleat, but can't find one that would work. I only want one sheet run to the rear so it has to be useable from the opposite side of the cockpit. A standard swivel cleat with an eye doesn't seem to be a good option for controlling it at close to 90 degrees. I'd like something like the Ronstan RF70, but I can only find those in tiny sizes. I also want it to uncleat when pulled down. Any ideas?

Also with this setup, I always see the sheet routed like so:
front block > boom base > mast base > organizer > cabin
It seems that the boom base block is not needed and could rout directly from the front block to the mast base. That makes the system a little simpler and still keeps the load axial to the boom.

 

[Crusty Ol Salt]

You could replace the 3 rope clutch with a 4 rope clutch. I believe the baseplate thee is large enough to accept it.

 

[jssailem]

With you background in the Hobie 16 and the Santana 30/30, both of those boats have the Mainsheet available and adjustable to the sail helm, as you desire. They both have end boom rigging for the main sheet. That type of rig is clean and easier to control the main because the forces on the boom are better leveraged. The compromise is the sheet rigging is in the way of the cockpit.

Hunter design is to open up the cockpit. Moving the running rigging out and putting it on the cabin top. This alters where the control forces are on the boom. It adds some friction points to the Mainsheet ( all the turning blocks from mid boom to the mast base then back to the cockpit) and the greater forces to control the boom (less leverage on the boom) makes hand control of the sheet iffy.

To address this they added the adjustable traveler on the cabin top.

That is the thoughts about the why of your current issue being difficult to resolve. You could reverse the process and move the rig to the end of the boom with a 4 to1 or 6 to 1 Mainsheet centered on the cockpit deck or on a pedestal. This would put the mainsail forces under your control. You could move the block and tackle out of the cockpit to the rail when at anchor or docked in a marina.

I suspect you will not be satisfied with just a “swivel cleat” on the cabin top.

 

[bonkle]

Also pertinent info: This is not for single handing. Just to make it less of a hastle to reach from a comfortable seated position.

I had a pretty good email conversation with a Ronstan rep. They were the only hardware maker to respond to me with any substance (tried Harken, Nautos, Schaefer, Viadana). She Looked up my boat to get an idea of loads and ended up recommending using the cabin top winch and a brake. She said the cleat idea was not good.

I'm only using two brakes currently- vang on left and main halyard on right- So I'll probably end up trying that since it requires no drilling or fabrication. I just find it scary having to keep tension on the sheet, reaching forward to unlock, and trying to catch it as the post brake portion of the sheet gets tensioned.

That is the thoughts about the why of your current issue being difficult to resolve. You could reverse the process and move the rig to the end of the boom with a 4 to1 or 6 to 1 Mainsheet centered on the cockpit deck or on a pedestal. This would put the mainsail forces under your control. You could move the block and tackle out of the cockpit to the rail when at anchor or docked in a marina.

I suspect you will not be satisfied with just a “swivel cleat” on the cabin top.

Here's a "KISS" idea similar to this^ that I'm really liking now. Instead of running the sheet forward like in the first pic, I run it to the helm pedestal. have a block with cleat like it has now that can be relocated at anchor. Below is a pic of the same model boat as mine. Do you think any of that existing structure could handle the load? I'm guessing not and I'd have to reinforce or add a completely new structure.

 

[jssailem]

It is an idea. You could try it in light winds to get an ideas of the force needed to control the sail. The control force in mid-boom are at least double of the end boom.

The line across the cockpit might strangle the jib sheet crew on a tack. Running the line from the mid boom rig to the end of the boom would negate the 3-1 block to the traveler.

I know all negative. Sorry.

On the good, it would give you a way to dump the main in gusts.

Regarding the location. Not bad. In alignment with the boom end. You could locate a short pedestal in front of the binnacle. It would work like on the Santana and not interfere with line management in the fore cockpit. Recognize, Hunters sail power in the B&R rig is really derived from the mainsail.

I would hesitate to rely on the binnacle structure for sail control. It is essential for steering the boat. I tend to not mess with essential structures on my boat. I want them to do the purpose they are designed for 100% of the time. No multi tasking.

 

[bonkle]

It is an idea. You could try it in light winds to get an ideas of the force needed to control the sail. The control force in mid-boom are at least double of the end boom.

The line across the cockpit might strangle the jib sheet crew on a tack. Running the line from the mid boom rig to the end of the boom would negate the 3-1 block to the traveler.

I'm sure I could do some math to figure out what to expect, but some simple reasoning is good enough for now. I have No idea what forces are on any of this stuff.

My experience so far is a good tug will pull the main in with the 7:1 purchase I currently have. I might figure that's an 80 lb tug on the high side. Now let's double that as a safety factor for a gust = 160 lbs. My proposed plan puts the new block at the end of the boom so there will be less force on it which adds even more safety factor. Now lets say the sail is pulling 160 lbs AND I'm pulling 160lbs. That's 320 lbs that the new pedestal has to handle. There's much more to it than that, but sound very possible to me.

 

[jssailem]

Note, when you put the single block on the end it is a turning block for the center blocks control force. Because it is removed from the other blocks you will experience attempt to control the full force that is on the boom end.
For your test you would be better served to put a 4-1 or 6-1 Mainsheet block on the boom end and see how it works for you.

Harken appears to have the set up you are considering

4:1 Swivel Base
Position the swivel base block off the traveler car to allow mainsail adjustment without dragging the car to windward in light air. To avoid tightening the leech, curve the track ends up.

DiagramRef.	Description	Small Boat Part No.	Midrange Part No.	Big Boat Part No.
A	Single	2600	2660	1540
B	Single	2601	2661	1541
C	Single	2135	2670	1549
D	Cam base	205	144	1574

Your looking for the C&D parts on your cabin top.

On the end boom set up, it would be something like this.


4:1 Fiddle
This 4:1 tackle is the most common system on boats under 8.5 m (28 ft).

DiagramRef.	Description	Small Boat Part No.	Midrange Part No.	Big Boat Part No.
A	Fiddle	2621	2690	1559
B	Fiddle	2676	2697	1566

You could also use the 6-1. I have this set up on my boat.

6:1 Reeved Right Angle
Boats with mainsails to 35 m² (375 ft²) often use a 6:1 system.

DiagramRef.	Description	Small Boat Part No.	Midrange Part No.	Big Boat Part No.
A	Triple	2604	2664	1546
B	Triple	2141	2686	1556

 

[jssailem]

Saving money in the test mode, I just get some line and a couple of blocks or fiddle blocks and tie them in place (barrow from a fellow sailor or swap it blocks on your boat). Lash the blocks in place.

With Main sail only I’d test the working forces. On a light breeze. It should be obvious how this feels when you have constant control of the sail.

If it suits your desires you can then do the engineering needed.

 

[Crusty Ol Salt]

I think i have the corrected Hunter 31 manual but who knows, there are a bunch available for download.
Here are the rigging diagrams for standard and furling running rigging on the stbd side thru the optional 3 or 4 rope clutch. This will get you back to the cockpit.

I am making numerous upgrades to my 280 using the drawings and installing options that were available from the factory.

Why reinvent the wheel when the original came with an option to do what you need. There is a chance that I have the wrong manual and I highly encourage you to do your own research.

The owners manuals can be downloaded are here. HunterOwners.com downloads

Good Luck

 

[bonkle]

I think i have the corrected Hunter 31 manual but who knows, there are a bunch available for download.
Here are the rigging diagrams for standard and furling running rigging on the stbd side thru the optional 3 or 4 rope clutch. This will get you back to the cockpit.

I am making numerous upgrades to my 280 using the drawings and installing options that were available from the factory.

Why reinvent the wheel when the original came with an option to do what you need. There is a chance that I have the wrong manual and I highly encourage you to do your own research.

The owners manuals can be downloaded are here. HunterOwners.com downloads

Good Luck

That's not my boat unfortunately. I did find a manual for my boat on some site. It looks like a scan of a scan and is the only document on the boat I could find.

 

[bonkle]

I'm sure I could do some math to figure out what to expect, but some simple reasoning is good enough for now. I have No idea what forces are on any of this stuff.

My experience so far is a good tug will pull the main in with the 7:1 purchase I currently have. I might figure that's an 80 lb tug on the high side. Now let's double that as a safety factor for a gust = 160 lbs. My proposed plan puts the new block at the end of the boom so there will be less force on it which adds even more safety factor. Now lets say the sail is pulling 160 lbs AND I'm pulling 160lbs. That's 320 lbs that the new pedestal has to handle. There's much more to it than that, but sound very possible to me.

Found a mainsheet load calculator on Harken's site. I came up with 1248 lbs for the existing setup using the center block as the boom block location and a 20 kt wind. I assume that's a total number, so 1:7 purchase puts one run of the sheet at 178 lbs. I sure got close with my swag... but I did double it... but I haven't been out in that much wind either. Wonder if there's any safety factor in that equation.

Mainsheet Loading Calculator | Harken Marine

The formula for mainsheet loading is not as widely accepted as that for genoa sheet

www.harken.com

 

[jmce1587]

Check Garhauer marine for specialty blocks with cam cleats Use theirs for my roller furler line on a stanchion. On my H31 I ran all lines to the cockpit including main sheet. can-send photos later this week when I get to the boat.

 

[bonkle]

Ran into a problem (maybe) while eyeballing everything today. Would I want a self tailing winch for the main? I currently have a... no tailing(?)... winch, but it does have the track, though very narrow, at the top where the sheet would run through after passing over the... tailer(?). It's an old Maxwell 16 or so. I may be able to get the tailer piece if it's possible to add it on.

Check Garhauer marine for specialty blocks with cam cleats Use theirs for my roller furler line on a stanchion. On my H31 I ran all lines to the cockpit including main sheet. can-send photos later this week when I get to the boat.

Very cool manufacturer. I do like stainless stuff, and the prices seem to undercut the big names. I did not see any swivel cleats that were any different from everyone else though. No ratchet+cleat or larger cleat blocks either. Their site isn't very organized though so I'll have to dig a little deeper.

 

[kappykaplan]

I have a self-tailer for my main halyard - means I can focus on grinding instead of grinding and tailing. The halyard goes through a line clutch in front of the winch. Welcome to the forum!

 

[jmce1587]

Ran into a problem (maybe) while eyeballing everything today. Would I want a self tailing winch for the main? I currently have a... no tailing(?)... winch, but it does have the track, though very narrow, at the top where the sheet would run through after passing over the... tailer(?). It's an old Maxwell 16 or so. I may be able to get the tailer piece if it's possible to add it on.


Very cool manufacturer. I do like stainless stuff, and the prices seem to undercut the big names. I did not see any swivel cleats that were any different from everyone else though. No ratchet+cleat or larger cleat blocks either. Their site isn't very organized though so I'll have to dig a little deeper.

give Garhauer a call. Very helpful customer service. Discuss what your looking for. As far as self tailing winches on the cabin top, if you can, then definitely do it. I changed mine 2 years ago to STs for halyards and main sheet. Got them on the west marine BOGO deal. made life easier.

 

[Joe]

Sounds to me you just need to use swiveling shackle to attach the mainsheet block and cleat to the traveler. Just like you would on a beach cat. The mainsheet moves with the traveler car from side to side. As far as rearranging the mainsheet itself... you can do that... but you'd want to spread the load out along the boom. Check the rigging catalogues for examples. The obvious problem is you want end boom sheeting with a mid-boom traveler location.... it will never work well that way. I think you should consider running the mainsheet along the gunnel to a winch close to the helm if you don't water the traveler mount doesn't appeal to you. You can install a simple cam cleat in addition to using the winch's cleating machismo.
One other thought, you will find that larger keel boats are much less responsive than the fun sailing dinghies and beach cats. For that reason, it is more common to use the traveler for more minor apparent wind speed and direction changes,... which is an angle of attack adjustment, rather than the mainsheet which controls leech tension, i.e. the all important TWIST, On a boat your size, you have enough purchase in the traveler rig to make adjustments without a winch... whereas the need one for the mainsail, especially when the wind pipes up. Playing the traveler is a much more efficient trim tool for all the points of sail except close hauled, if course, where you would be steering to the tell tales. Anyway, that's alot to think about...but the best thing to do is keep researching and talking to folks.

 

[kloudie1]

Boat was originally rigged according to the blue line drawn into the top picture. It used the existing three boom mounted blocks as shown, but without the lower block and cam cleat. The triple block was attached directly to the traveller car, and the sheet led through the clutch. The way that the sheet is pictured is a much lower friction control and much better than the original for control. The H-34's were rigged exactly as the 31 .. My PO raced some and had converted to what the attached shows. The only advantage of the original is that a dodger can be installed without interfering with mainsheet control.

 

[markwbird]

I did something like what you are wanting to do. My setup is similar to the 6:1 setup shown in Jssailem's response. The problem is that you have a mid-boom mainsheet and you are standing behind the wheel which makes easy access not so easy. Anyway, I can stand at the helm with the mainsheet in hand and adjust the main with my setup. See attached. The photo shows the mainsheet dropped into the compansionway but it is very long and I can hold it from anywhere

 

[bonkle]

Does this pic give any insight as to what may be missing? There are 7 attachment eye things on the bottom of the boom. 3 are the mainsheet and 1 is the vang.
The rear one is fixed and second to rear slides freely. Those two rigged to hold a bungee to keep tension on the boom-holder-upper while the sail is up. I assume that's a sail shaping control? I've just been loosening it and tensioning it with a bungee so it doesn't slap the sail.
Not sure if the eye next to the vang eye is fixed or slides.

 

[jssailem]

Looking at your image, it appears your boom offers several options. Not sure what you mean by "Missing".

It would appear that you could shift from a mid boom mainsheet rig, to an end boom rig by jsut buying the blocks and rig the tackle there. You would require either a fix point or a traveler system beneath the boom end. This may impinge on your cockpit movement. You only need a single boom connection because the force required to control the sail are less than the mid boom design. The boom is stronger (less prone to failure) when controlled at the end then when controlled in the middle.

Your choice. It is a compromise. Do not think things are missing, just you are given options.