Macerator Pump simply installed

[Regular Guy]

This may be interesting for some of you. I have an 13 Gallon holding tank on my H260 and it doesn't really take long on a several days trip of two to fill it up especially by generously flushing.
Since located on the Intracoastal in Florida I have to get out on the ocean to sail and reach easily beyond the two miles.
I was tired of finding pump-out places and thought of a macerator pump but did not want to go through the hassle of a inboard solution with installing switch, cutting pipes, through hull, etc.
Interesting is that the 1-1/2" thread of the macerator pump, I used the Jabsco 18590-series, fits exactly into the thread of the outside tank flange and seals on its own. I used screwed the pump in, used a short hose into the water and a flexible cable, when needed, to connect a moment it to a 12V outlet in the salon.
It works very well and I can now after pump-out rinse the holding tank bei filling up with some water via the marine toilet, sailing for a while to have the tank plenty shaked and pump it out again. For this was never a chance at a pump station.
The pump is a multi fit; thread followed by a 1" long hose barb. I cut the hose barb off, it was too long for the tank flange also removed the mounting piece from the pump with the four rubber screw holes since not used. That was all to do.

 

[mz4wheeler]

Brilliant!

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

check on the regs as you may be too close in at two miles to be pumping overboard. I remember that a Y valve which you do not have had to be secured if within the 12 mile limit. If caught pumping overboard and you are not in compliance, then if caught will cost you severely. Check on the regs before you pump overboard.

 

[Regular Guy]

Did some digging: Here are the rules for dumping sewage by the Federal Water Pollution Control Act (the U.S. Coast Guard and Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) have principal regulatory and standard-setting responsibilities).

Vessels with installed toilets have to be equipped with a marine sanitation device (MSD), which is designed to prevent discharge of untreated sewage.
There are three types of MSDs; Type III means holding tanks, which store waste but do not treat them.
To prevent from accidental discharge the seacock has to be held closed or when ability to discharge is part of the vessel, the Y-valve has safely to be secured (as Dave said).
I don't know if a not electrically connected macerator pump on the pump-out flange would be considered as secure closed, but could easily be replace with the original lid.

Interesting here is that sewage can be dumped from vessels into the navigable waters of the United States, when treated prior to discharge, between 3 and 12 land-miles from shore. Sewage discharges must be treated by no less than maceration or chlorination; sewage discharges (untreated) beyond 12 miles from shore are unrestricted.

An installed maceration pump allows legally discharging the holding tank beyond 3 land miles!

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

lRegular Guy;

Best to research and hear from others. Go to the Ask all Sailors for some good old advice for those who have been there. I am thinking 12 miles vs. 3 but again do not know the regs. If you have a simple toilet system, then the rules are more strict than those treated by other means. Again, I am not up to date sir but do field that question for your own protection.

 

[Regular Guy]

Dave,
I read the regulations as recited. Macerator treated sewage can be dumped in US waters 3 Miles from shore. Agree to look at the actual regulations give a better peace of mind than what others may say.
Hart

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

I would still ask the question to be on the safe side on all sailors section. Frankly the regs are sometimes taken differently by regulatory fellows. Again, just ask that on All Sailors. There is a term I remind myself which is CYA!!!!!!

 

[JK_Boston_Catalina310]

In addition to the 3 mile line you need to look at no discharge zones. For instance if you are in the middle of cape cod bay you are more than 3 miles from shore but you are in the middle of a no discharge zone.

 

[Regular Guy]

The request to discuss from which mileage offshore macerated sewage can be dumped has been placed under the forum Ask All Sailors. Thanks,
Hart

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

There is an excellent comments on this from the Head Mistress who use to be a regular on the forum who responded in detail. It is worth reading. I have always advised asking the local folks what the rules of the road are if sailing in unknown waters.

Hart, thank you for taking the advice. Peggy Hall also know as the Head Mistress who use to have her own forum answered or responded appropriately; however, rules do change and there are areas that you have to make yourself aware of where not to dump with your set up and some pointed out for example in Florida and Cape Cod as examples

 

[Regular Guy]

In addition to the 3 mile line you need to look at no discharge zones. For instance if you are in the middle of cape cod bay you are more than 3 miles from shore but you are in the middle of a no discharge zone.

Thanks; here a link to No Discharge Zones by state: http://water.epa.gov/polwaste/vwd/vsdnozone.cfm

 

[Fred]

Are those pumps self-priming? Could they be used as a transfer pump? I have a MSD porta-pottie and occasionally we are out long enough to fill the holding tank.

 

[Regular Guy]

Are those pumps self-priming? Could they be used as a transfer pump? I have a MSD porta-pottie and occasionally we are out long enough to fill the holding tank.

Hi Fred,
yes, these pumps are self priming, don't really know what you mean with transfer the main purpose here is the maceration but you may find what you are looking for in the manual: http://www.xylemflowcontrol.com/files/18590_950-0141.pdf
Hart

 

[Fred]

I have a MSD porta-pottie (5 gallon holding capacity) installed. Most of the time this is more than adequate however from time to time (maybe once per year) we are out for a longer period and the tank gets dangerously close to filling up before we have access to a pump-out. This causes angst among the crew. We sail on inland waters so a lake discharge is not a legal option. My thought was to have a portable tank (e.g. a jerry can) and use your (brilliant) macerator pump idea to transfer the contents from the porta-pottie into this portable tank.

Would this be too messy to implement? Just the idea that there is a "plan B" onboard would provide some peace of mind even though it might never be used.

 

[sesmith]

now after pump-out rinse the holding tank bei filling up with some water via the marine toilet, sailing for a while to have the tank plenty shaked and pump it out again. For this was never a chance at a pump station.
.

What I usually do, after pumping the tank, is just open the inlet water valve for the head, with the pump still attached. The vacuum from the pumpout will suck plenty of seawater through the system, flushing the hoses and tank. Only takes a minute.

Before winter layup, as long as no one is waiting for the pump, I'll fill the tank via hose and pump out again.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Did some digging: Here are the rules for dumping sewage by the Federal Water Pollution Control Act (the U.S. Coast Guard and Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) have principal regulatory and standard-setting responsibilities.

You got a lot of it right, but not all of it...

Vessels with installed toilets have to be equipped with a marine sanitation device (MSD), which is designed to prevent discharge of untreated sewage. There are three types of MSDs; Type III means holding tanks, which store waste but do not treat them.
To prevent from accidental discharge the seacock has to be held closed or when ability to discharge is part of the vessel, the Y-valve has safely to be secured (as Dave said).

So far so good...

I don't know if a not electrically connected macerator pump on the pump-out flange would be considered as secure closed, but could easily be replace with the original lid.

You should be ok with that.

An installed maceration pump allows legally discharging the holding tank beyond 3 land miles!

Nautical miles, actually... To dump a tank legally, you must be at sea in open waters at least 3 nautical miles from the whole US coastline, not just three miles from the nearest shore in a bay, lake or river. 3 miles is the legal limit everywhere EXCEPT the FL Keys. There it's 12 miles in the Gulf, but still 3 miles in the Atlantic.

A macerator pump is legal, yes...but it's not necessary to macerate untreated waste from a holding tank...any pumps, including manual diaphragm pumps, are legal...you can even pick the tank up and pour it over the side as long as you're at sea beyond the "3 mile limit." Nor is it necessary to chlorinate or otherwise "treat" holding tank contents to dump a tank.

But here is where you went astray...

Interesting here is that sewage can be dumped from vessels into the navigable waters of the United States, when treated prior to discharge, between 3 and 12 land-miles from shore.

It doesn't have to be treated to be legally dumped beyond the "3 mile limit."

Sewage discharges must be treated by no less than maceration or chlorination; sewage discharges (untreated) beyond 12 miles from shore are unrestricted.

You've confused the regs that apply to holding tanks (there are none except for legal distance from shore) with the regs that apply to USCG certified Type I and II MSDs (treatment devices)...and you may even have also stumbled into the regs for commercial vessels and cruise ships in Alaska as well. I'll try to sort it out for you:

Except in waters that have been specifically designated "no discharge," treated waste may be discharged inside the "3 mile limit", right up to the shoreline. In fact, except for a few well-meaning but misguided marinas, the discharge of treated waste is legal in all FL waters, including the ICW, except for the Keys and Destin Harbor. However, ONLY waste that goes directly overboard from a USCG certified Type I or II MSD is considered "treated" waste...there is nothing a boat owner can do to a tankful of waste to make it "treated." In fact, treated waste ceases to be considered treated if it goes into a tank first...it must go overboard directly from the treatment device.

Federal law requires that Type I MSDs (the type allowed on boats < 66' LOA) macerate to "no visible solids"--iow completely liquified--and reduce bacteria count to <1,000/100 ml. Waste passes through toilets in overboard macerators waaay too fast for 'em to any more than just chop up waste and TP...not nearly enough. The most popular Type Is are the Raritan Electroscan and PuraSan (which you can check on the Waste Treatment page of the Raritan site here http://www.raritaneng.com/catagory-pages/waste-treatment/ ) Theiy treat and discharge a flush at a time...each treatment cycle lasts 2.5 minutes. Nor can a boat owner cobble up his own treatment device and get it certified...Equipment mfrs submit devices in prototype to the CG, and then every unit must be made exactly like the one the CG certified. Even the slightest change requires require re-certifcation. Devices must also be re-certified every 5 years.

Source: Code of Federal Regulations 33 CFR 159.7 (stick with that, any more will just confuse more because it's for boat builders and equipment mfrs, not owners) and 40 CFR 140.

As for the "12 mile limit"...that's the limit for the territorial waters of the US....beyond that, you're international waters by most definitions...fishing rights and other issues can extend a country's territorial limits for a specific purpose.

The request to discuss from which mileage offshore macerated sewage can be dumped has been placed under the forum Ask All Sailors.

What do you have against the sanitation and plumbing forum?

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Thank you Peggy for your always good advice to everyone. I appreciate the time you spent. Give me a call sometime. I sure miss talking with a fine lady.

 

[Doug J]

I want to install deck pump out to my 5 gallon MSD pottie and would like to run the hoses to the same area your macerator pump connects. I won't have a holding tank back there just want to install a deck pump out fitting. Can you tell me how the hoses are run from the head to your holding tank? Are they hidden under the aft berth liner? Any problem with odor? Pictures would be fantastic if possible!

 

[Regular Guy]

Doug, the hoses from the head, going underneath the aft berth to the wast holding tank, as well as from the wast tank to the 1-1/2" through hull fitting was factory installed. There are recommendations on this forum for buying best hoses to avoid odor.
The pictures show the marine head hose connections. The biggest is the waste hose, you can see that it goes lower under aft berth. The two parallel hoses in the second picture build the venting loop. In the last picture, you see the waste tank with the pump-out and venting hoses going to their through hull fittings.
Hope this helps,
Hart

 

[Doug J]

Hart, yes this is very helpful. Since asking you this question, I was able to find a Marlow document that describes the whole installation process, which includes pictures similar to yours. Unfortunately what I now know is that the H26 does not have PVC conduit run to the aft compartment, which accommodates the hoses to the area where the holding tank is located on the 260. It would be a much harder job on the H26 as I would have to install the PVC into some holes which would need to be made.

TWalker made an awesome suggestion to run the hoses to the underside of the aft berth overhead. Which at this point I believe that is what I'll do. I think that method should look pretty good, and be very functional.

Thanks for your response!