Mac 25 Rudder-Tiller

[David M]

I am a new owner of a 1976 Mac Venture 25 and a novice in this size sailboat. I am in the process of rebuilding this project and have some questions about the rudder-tiller and was wondering if anyone can help with information about this subject. I am also a new member on this forum.
The rudder-tiller looks like it is either teak or mahogony. The rudder (segment that sticks in the water is all sanded down, and it has age-drying cracks) and I was thinking about fixing this portion. What would be the best way to rebuild this segment. The cracks could be filled with a marine epoxy or wood filler, then what would the next steps be? Finish the wood with marine varnish, then put fiberglass matting over, then fiberglass resin, then antifouling paint?
The next item is the wood portion of the rudder system that goes veritcal connecting the lower rudder to the tiller. That section is junk and I need to replace it. I do not know if this is teak or mahogony. Is there a good place to buy this wood. The size piece need is about 38" long x 11" wide x 1-1/4" thick. I thought of contacting a local cabinet shop to find the wood.
The tiller segment just needs sanding and refinishing. Does anyone know of a good marine product that is best suited for the finish on teak or mahogony?
Next question: The entire rudder system was taken apart. I also am looking for a diagram or drawings to be able to put the rudder system back together including the rigging of it. In addition, is there a diagram or any drawings available out there to be able to get the dimensions of the vertical wood rudder piece to make a new one as mine is damaged. I know this is alot of information needed and if anyone could help, suggest or point me in the right direction I would really appreciate it. Again, I am a novice at this so I could really use advice on this. Thank you. David

 

[caguy]

Rather than spending time and money repairing the old rudder, apply that expense to an Ida rudder. It suppose to improve performance and will increase the balue of your boat.

 

[MrBill_FLL]

search is your friend...

1st question, is the centerboard working properly. if you have a problem with the iron keel, or its operation, its a major project and should be checked before investing too much time or money.

once that's A OK, improving the rudder is the #1 best place to improve the handling of the boat. the ruddercraft rudder assembly while not cheap is worth it IMHO.

and fwiw, the rudder on the 87-89 26D is the same.

no go read some old threads...

 

[MrMikey64]

David:
How much access do you have to junk boat parts or old Mac parts?
If you're lucky, the better combination to find would be the metal rudder assembly for the upper portion (used on 1981+ Macs, I believe) and the Ida rudder caguy mentioned.
Otherwise, it sounds like you've got the two piece system where the two halves are joined by two metal plates, and one section has a curved notch in it to accomodate the pivoting motion of the lower half.
The assembly I have on my '81 Mac has the two halves, but they certainly aren't teak or mahogany. They're about the size you suggested, encased in fiberglass with a gelcoat finish. I've attached a few pics. Is this what you are talking about?
Finally, will this boat be in the water all the time, or for significant periods over a season? If it is going to be trailered most of the time, I wonder how necessary the antifouling paint is.

 

[David M]

David:
How much access do you have to junk boat parts or old Mac parts?
If you're lucky, the better combination to find would be the metal rudder assembly for the upper portion (used on 1981+ Macs, I believe) and the Ida rudder caguy mentioned.
Otherwise, it sounds like you've got the two piece system where the two halves are joined by two metal plates, and one section has a curved notch in it to accomodate the pivoting motion of the lower half.
The assembly I have on my '81 Mac has the two halves, but they certainly aren't teak or mahogany. They're about the size you suggested, encased in fiberglass with a gelcoat finish. I've attached a few pics. Is this what you are talking about?
Finally, will this boat be in the water all the time, or for significant periods over a season? If it is going to be trailered most of the time, I wonder how necessary the antifouling paint is.

I am new to this so I will have to search for parts. Yes this is what it looks like with the two halves with metal plates to join. The boat will probably be in the water about 3-4 months, June -Sept, fresh water in the bay of Green Bay/Lake Michigan, then taken out for the season. I do not know when the last time the anti-fouling paint was applied, most likely 3-4 + years ago I bought this boat last June and have been working on it a bit at a time. The bottom paint is chalking to the touch. How can you tell when it is time to put on new bottom paint? Just with age, or if the paint is down to the fiberglass?
I will check out the Ida Rudder or try to find a metal or fiberglass mid section. I can however take the rudder setup off the boat if I will not use it for several weeks at a time. Any additional info will greatly help in this process. Thank you! David

 

[David M]

search is your friend...

1st question, is the centerboard working properly. if you have a problem with the iron keel, or its operation, its a major project and should be checked before investing too much time or money.

once that's A OK, improving the rudder is the #1 best place to improve the handling of the boat. the ruddercraft rudder assembly while not cheap is worth it IMHO.

and fwiw, the rudder on the 87-89 26D is the same.

no go read some old threads...

(Your 1st question, is the centerboard working properly. if you have a problem with the iron keel, or its operation.) This is a very good question to verify. What would be the best way to check this out? It is currently on a trailer. Should it be brought to a marina and have them lift it up off the trailer to see how this is working (or not)?
What would you suggest as a process to do see how this is working? Just use the crank to lower once the boat is lifted up? Is there any locking pin that I need to be aware of?
I would appreciate any insight. Thank you,
David

 

[MrMikey64]

If it's been a couple of years since it's last application, you're probably going to need to do it again fairly soon.
MrBill makesa very good point about checking the swing keel as soon as you can, especially around the pivot and lock bolt holes and the bolts themselves. Many a keel has been lost due to neglect in these areas - and it would be a shame to put a lot of work into the rest of the boat only to have the keel fall off, pretty much making the boat useless and worthless.
As for the rudder midsection, that isn't something you'll find through Ida rudder - they will only have the actual blades that make up the lowest portion.
If you do a search both in the forum and online as to how to build a rudder, you can see a few examples of what people have done in your situation. It just might be worth it to rework what you have. As to the one in my pics, the mating plates were so badly pitted and damaged that I had to find replacement aluminum plate, which should do the job nicely. Other than that, I filled in the damaged areas with epoxy, and will apply a gelcoat finish to the outside.
Congrats on the new (to you) Venture, and enjoy the experience!

 

[MrMikey64]

(Your 1st question, is the centerboard working properly. if you have a problem with the iron keel, or its operation.) This is a very good question to verify. What would be the best way to check this out? It is currently on a trailer. Should it be brought to a marina and have them lift it up off the trailer to see how this is working (or not)?
What would you suggest as a process to do see how this is working? Just use the crank to lower once the boat is lifted up? Is there any locking pin that I need to be aware of?
I would appreciate any insight. Thank you,
David

Again, David, this site can give you the advice you need.
Search through the archives about how to remore the boat from the trailer. It's not all that difficult to do. You want to be able to raise the boat enough to move the trailer forward, just enough so you can clear the keel. Then, using a floor jack (and perhaps some kind of makeshift frame that will keep it from toppliing), you can lower the keel to the ground with the winch, inspect the winch cable and bolt while you're there, then raise the jack until it is securely under the midportion of the keel, loosen and remove the pivot bolt, then slowly lower the keel until you can see the pivot and lock bolt holes. It does not have to go all the way to the ground, and it doesn't hurt to have a couple of blocks or supports ready to hold the front of the keel up as a safety measure.

 

[MrMikey64]

Is there any locking pin that I need to be aware of?

Look into your Mac25 manual (if you don't have one, you can finda pdf copy in the Boat Info section, under Mac 25). It will show you a diagram of where the pivot and lock bolts are located, so you can check to see if they are there or not.

 

[MrBill_FLL]

in fla, I'd splash the boat and put a masks on to check the keel.

but in WI, its safer to lift the boat off the trl, and remove the keel, epoxy seal it, and install new bearings.

if you have a keel problem it could make the boat worthless. better be sure before going in too deep

sumner's website had a very good documentation on lifting the boat off the trl. - but you have a ~600# keel... be careful.

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor/macgregor-index.html

if you have that 2 piece rudder sytem, I'd junk that and get a new blade or entire assembly. you can build one if you have more time than $.

its all here in the archives.

 

[ejet99]

I have a Venture 2-24 that I rebuilt the last two years I did a bunch of research and if you are a good project/builder kind of person you can rebuild the rudder assembly. I'm not too good at projects so I bought the Ida replacement It is very good but cost $960.oo with everything.

 

[Lost Horizon]

I got the same rudder

The rudder on my '81 looks the same as yours. I ground out and filled cracks and covered bare wood spots with fiberglass, and just bought new 1/4 inch aluminum plates for $26 to hold the two haves together. I can send you measurements if you like. $900 to Ida would be nice if I could afford it but that's twice what the boat is worth!

Someone should make cheap fiberglass rudders for us and charge a couple hundred instead of six, and they wouldn't break like the plastic IDA rudders either. I would consider making the rudder castle out of channel aluminum and aluminum plates-and be done with it if mine was shot.

 

[ChockFullOnuts222]

As long as the rudder blade (lower part) isn't so badly damaged that it's falling apart or can be broken by hand like driftwood, I would say fix it. Wrap the wood in fiberglass, and you should never have to worry about it again. Just make sure you don't forget to line the holes with resin, too. An epoxy resin, rather than a polyester resin (like Bondo products) would last a lot longer and offer a lot more quality. Fixing and refinishing your existing rudder parts will be a lot cheaper than buying a brand new set of parts---especially that Ida rudder. I can understand everyone raving about the Ida-rudder's performance; but for $900, I think I'd rather just either fix what I had or try building new parts from scratch.