Mac 22 in shallow lake

Knuttle · Nov 19, 2009

The V-22 draft keel down is 5' 6".

I think the big question is what is the shape of the lake? What are the widest spots on the lake? Is it a large wide oval, or is it a flooded creek valley with many arms and not large wide areas?

If it is a creek valley then you probably could sail with the keel up and have no problems. If it is a large wide oval then it would depend on the topography of the area. If the topography is such that the winds are always low speeds with no gust you probably can sail a lot with the keel up with no problems. If the topography is such that you get frequent gust across the lake I think you will find the hassle of frequent knock downs and grounding more than you would want to put up with.

Do you have sounding of the lake and know the depth and shallows in the lake?

timebandit · Nov 19, 2009

I would not recommend it for several reasons.

The main one is the fact that the keel needs to be down to ballance the sails being up, without this the boat will tip over and not right itself.

The keel is not designed to be supported all the time by the cable.

The boat wil not turn properly.

Dont forget that the rudder hangs down quit a bit also.

If all you want to do is get away from the dock with the motor and then lower the keel and raise the sail that will be ok.

If this is the only lake you are going to sail I would recommend a 26 mac classic with water balast and a swing keel, better know as a 26s.

The 26s has twice as much balast weight because it carries it higher up inside the hull.

Sorry.

Sumner · Nov 19, 2009

timebandit said:
..................If this is the only lake you are going to sail I would recommend a 26 mac classic with water ballast and a swing keel, better know as a 26s.

The 26s has twice as much ballast weight because it carries it higher up inside the hull.

Sorry.

I agree.......as the picture shows you can actually sail a 26S pretty well with the centerboard up. The sign is there as we usually have it up when anchored and invariably forget to lower it after coming off anchor. We sailed a lot with it in that condition even tacking into the wind. We were pointed into the wind and it felt like we were going forward, but there was probably a lot of side slippage that we weren't noticing until we seemed to not be moving down the lake after considerable sailing

. You can make some headway at all points of sail with it up, just not as efficiently and you do have the option of anywhere between full up and full down.

The boat while heeling seemed the same with it up or down due to the water ballast, but I would think it would slow the heeling down some in a sudden gust.

Get an S if you can and put a ..............

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor/rigging-1.html

............. releasing cam cleat on the tiller and you would be good to go,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

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timebandit · Nov 19, 2009

A good read---

http://macgregor.sailboatowners.com/images/kb/pdf/1361.pdf

walt · Nov 20, 2009

Interesting about the boat not being self righting with the keel up.. and I would take that very seriously.. although getting knocked down and swamped in 3 foot of water would mostly just ruin your day.

I have a 26S and for one spring, my centerboard would only drop maybe 1/3 or 1/2 of the way down. Besides moving the underwater center of effort back, a swept back foil needs to operate at a higher angle of attack to generate the same lift as a more vertical foil and generates more drag doing so. I would definately notice this by looking at my wake which would go off at more of an angle than if the foil is all the way down. But, overall, the boat sailed just fine.

My first sailboat was a little wing keel Catalina 16 which is hard to find but the similar Catalina Capri 18 would probably be a real nice boat for that lake - sails very nicely in about 2.5 foot of water. The Macs/Ventures are way easier to trailer.

Norman Staniec · Nov 20, 2009

Over time there has been a fair bit of discussion on this forum for and against the necessity to lock down the keel (all the way down with the bolt). Both sides have made good points and I'm still not sure who's right but I keep envisioning what a 500 lb piece of iron could do to my boat if traveling up fast during a knockdown- I always chicken out and bolt.

shine · Nov 20, 2009

I had one of those mac 26S water ballast boats. It was like sailing a bath tub. I sold it after a year. Imagine takeing a regular sailboatand boat filling it half way with water and then trying to sail her. Thats what a water ballast boat felt like to me. There is no protection from heavy winds because there is no wieght or traction deep enough. It was very tippy. Any little gust and it healed very fast. I would defenitely stay away from any water ballast boat.

Sumner · Nov 20, 2009

shine said:
I had one of those mac 26S water ballast boats. It was like sailing a bath tub. I sold it after a year. Imagine takeing a regular sailboatand boat filling it half way with water and then trying to sail her. Thats what a water ballast boat felt like to me. There is no protection from heavy winds because there is no wieght or traction deep enough. It was very tippy. Any little gust and it healed very fast. I would defenitely stay away from any water ballast boat.

We like our "bath tub"

. There is a difference in if the water is fixed in a compartment or if it can just flow anywhere it wants as in your example. Sorry you didn't like yours, but I'll bet someone else is happy with it.

You sail on Stocton Lake? I have friends in Springfield and Neosho and they have mentioned it to me. What other lakes do you like in the area? My folks lived in Branson from the 70's until they passed away and I was in that area often. Grew up in north St. Louis County.

c ya,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

Our Mac Pages

Mac Links[/b

Norman Staniec · Nov 22, 2009

Shine,
It's nice to hear an opinion from someone who has actually owned and sailed both types of Macs over time, I assume in varying conditions . Before buying my Mac22 I wrestled with which type to buy for a long time. Having owned and raced 3 different one design class boats in my younger days (much younger) off the shores of southern Ca. with good winds and ocean, I was attracted to the swing keel and its ability to provide a sailing experience I remembered. However, the attraction of not trailering the weight around was appealing too, as well as being able to maintain ballast while retracting the center or dagger board in the shallows.
I almost went the water ballast. I ended up with the Mac 22 partly because of price but mostly because it provided a very trailerable and easily launched boat (the beauty of the Mac) while still offering that lowered center of weight. I am happy with the decision. I obviously just cruise now but I do enjoy the heavier winds (sometimes to my mates terror). To feel the power of a wind gust and the boat thrust forward without being overly concerned about paying out the main sheet is a thrill.
To be fair, I have never sailed a water ballast so I could be wrong but it does make sense that lowering the center of weight 3-5' below the water line, as oppose to at and just below the water line, provides for a more stable and less tipsy sailing experience in gusty winds (the fun stuff!). With most everything there are trade offs, it just depends on your priorities. And getting back to the original question the gentleman asked, if you are going to sail in a very shallow lake most of the time, and if you buy into the idea that its not a good idea to just partially lower your keel, maybe a water ballast would be better for you if thats a possibility.

shine · Nov 24, 2009

I still would not have a water ballast boat, because your still going to have all kinds of different conditions on that lake. And what if you wanted to go to another lake and sail.
I have heard other people say that they have lowered their keel part way and sailed fine. I have not ever needed to do that. So i really cant help with that one. I guess if it were a steady light wind type lake a water ballast would be OK.

Knuttle · Nov 25, 2009

kbates said:
Our lake has essentially a flat bottom and is oval shaped with mostly a low shore. the 22 is about as big a boat as I can store here. I will be mostly sailing here with some excursions to deeper water,and other local lakes, as well as some (ahem..) auxiliary cruses in calm evenings.

If you sail in the oval lake on relatively calm evenings, then you should be OK. With the keel up the Venture/Macs become a keel boat with quite good directional stability. You will have to be very careful NOT to tie the rudder down it to draws several feet of water.

I know from experience in the evenings on in these inland areas that as the sun goes down, so does the wind. There have been many evenings when we would raise the keel to reduce resistance, and basically sail/drift for a very pleasant evening. These would usually occur after a nice days sail and we waited to late to return to the dock. It has been quite late by the time we finally got back to the dock. (I always enjoy thinking about all of the free wind power that green million dollar wind mills will be producing on evenings like this.)

While in your boat enjoying the evening, always remember the weather changes and never let your guard down. These boats probably could be sailed in some quite heavy weather with some sort of trapeze, but that is not standard equipment.

Sumner · Nov 25, 2009

shine said:
I still would not have a water ballast boat, because your still going to have all kinds of different conditions on that lake. And what if you wanted to go to another lake and sail............

Here is a read you might be interested in. California to Panama in a 26S like you had and he didn't make the trip on a trailer....

http://lbucko.tripod.com/index.html

...... and he weathered some 'big' storms on the way. I gotta stick up for the 26 S & D's

. Nothing wrong with the other Macs and Ventures.

Thanks for the info on the lakes there. I'd like to do Table Rock also and one of these days we will get back that way.

c ya,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

Our Mac Pages

Mac Links

Blake · Nov 25, 2009

It is too bad the Hobie isn't working out for you. It seems to me that your lake is made for a multi hull of some sort that doesn't require a swing keel or dagger board, but I have never sailed any of them. I know the hassle of trying to raise sail on a small catboat single handed, and last winter I added a mizzen mast to my wooden cosine wherry so she would point into the wind while the main was raised.
Probably hard to find and much more expensive, but you should look at a Windrider Trimaran http://www.windrider.com/index.shtml.