Loose footed mainsail

[Albanach]

Just another thought:
How is your Mast Rake ? Some furling masts appear ‘overstraight’ to accommodate furling ease. It does seems highly unlikely with a B&R rigg.
I had mine re-rigged recently. When I took it in, the rigger (who has worked in several Admirals and Americas Cup campaigns) thought it very funny that my mast was raked slightly forward. I had noticed it before, but blamed it on my glasses. After re-rigging, the mast is now about straight, but certainly not pointing forward – it cannot be raked more aft, as the pressure would prevent the forward bulkhead door from closing.
The sailing performance has increased greatly and generally the applied principles of sail adjustment, as outlined by the vars. experts, seem to work. I actually tried vars. ‘belly’ positions with the main sailing alongside a new Hanse 35 recently. I noticed how I fell off when increasing or decreasing the same too much. This is, I think, where Don was alluding to the correct ‘belly extension’ being critical (same as in belly dancing?). Held my own for quite a while, but had to give in in the end ( probably not good at belly dancing).
I do not use the furling line option, just the vang for flattening.
And, much of the time I don’t do any of the above – just go sailing.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Clark, my boomkicker is normally collapsed completely. When the boom is off midship it is fine but When the main is out I really have no way pulling down on the boom to flatten the main. How do I flatten the main when it is past the traveler.

Doesn't this mean that you essentially do not have a vang? Strange to hear.

 

[sea_casper]

Topping lift

Doesn't this mean that you essentially do not have a vang? Strange to hear.

The topping lift functions to lift the boom, increasing twist, with the vang released.

There is an optional gas spring available for the solid vang which would lift the boom by easing the vang control line.

With the furling main there is no interference between the main and the topping lift, as there is with a battened conventional sail.

 

[Don Guillette]

Albanach: The main point is you've seen how it works and the more you play with draft depth (belly) the better you get. As you induce belly, up to the point where it becomes counter productive - around 25% - what you're doing is powering up the main and jib. Draft depth is your accelerator but the rest of both sails have to be correctly adjusted so all are in step with each other. In other words, min twist, draft position a little over 50%, correct angle of attack and all telltales streaming. In fact, if you can get the inside jib telltale to "flip up" every couple of seconds that's even better. Another thing that's overlooked is crew position. Incorrect crew position can reduce your speed. We're not talking about the land/sea record but every little bit helps or hurts your overall speed.

Every time two boats are on the water together their racing!! It's a guy thing and sometimes gals are into it also. Nothing worse than having a gal leave you in the dust!! Every time I was just cruising around, just the wife and myself and just taking it easy, I always kept one eye on boats coming up behind me. They always telegraph that they intend to speed by you. So, I check to make sure my draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack is correct and I change my point of sail so they have to come by on the side where I can take their wind. Now I set the bait and see if they'll take the hook (and they always do) by dropping the traveler and easing the jib sheet to slow down just a bit. My wife, who spends most of the time with her back to the bulkhead catching rays is my spotter. I ask her to tell me when they are about 5 or 6 boat lengths behind. I then crank in the jib sheet and adjust the traveler and I'm gone. Lots of time, depending on what they are sailing, they eventually catch me but they have to work at it. If it's another catalina 30, of which there are plenty in So Ca, it ain't going to happen.

Albanach, what's your weather like this time of the year? We're leaving for your neck of the woods on 11/4. We land in Sydney and board the cruise ship for a tour of your country and New Zealand. We end the cruise in Auckland.

 

[Nodak7]

Thanks a bunch RichH. But there are some things you mention that I need clarification on. So let me show you how ignorant I am. First off I have not heard of "midcord" tell tales but from what I read it sounds like the ones that are in the "middle" of the sail. If so yes I have applies a full set to my main. Strangely enough the PO had none. I watch them alot to see how the sail is powered up.

Second your statement about "flat sails in light winds" is contrary to what I have read but I find that many times in light winds I can get all the tell tales on the Jib flowing straight out when I flatten the sail. (Car full back).

But I have to admit the lights are beginning to come on in this old head! Your statement regarding FLAT and FULL are beginning to explain some issues we have regarding performance. Unfortunately application of this has to wait for a few months which is going to drive me crazy! Thanks

 

[Nodak7]

Albanach: The main point is you've seen how it works and the more you play with draft depth (belly) the better you get. As you induce belly, up to the point where it becomes counter productive - around 25% - what you're doing is powering up the main and jib. Draft depth is your accelerator but the rest of both sails have to be correctly adjusted so all are in step with each other. In other words, min twist, draft position a little over 50%, correct angle of attack and all telltales streaming. In fact, if you can get the inside jib telltale to "flip up" every couple of seconds that's even better. Another thing that's overlooked is crew position. Incorrect crew position can reduce your speed. We're not talking about the land/sea record but every little bit helps or hurts your overall speed.

Every time two boats are on the water together their racing!! It's a guy thing and sometimes gals are into it also. Nothing worse than having a gal leave you in the dust!! Every time I was just cruising around, just the wife and myself and just taking it easy, I always kept one eye on boats coming up behind me. They always telegraph that they intend to speed by you. So, I check to make sure my draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack is correct and I change my point of sail so they have to come by on the side where I can take their wind. Now I set the bait and see if they'll take the hook (and they always do) by dropping the traveler and easing the jib sheet to slow down just a bit. My wife, who spends most of the time with her back to the bulkhead catching rays is my spotter. I ask her to tell me when they are about 5 or 6 boat lengths behind. I then crank in the jib sheet and adjust the traveler and I'm gone. Lots of time, depending on what they are sailing, they eventually catch me but they have to work at it. If it's another catalina 30, of which there are plenty in So Ca, it ain't going to happen.

Albanach, what's your weather like this time of the year? We're leaving for your neck of the woods on 11/4. We land in Sydney and board the cruise ship for a tour of your country and New Zealand. We end the cruise in Auckland.

Don, I have attached a photo of us sailing, this past summer, in gusty winds of 15-25kts. I think this was during a gust but from the sail position you can see we have the fairlead back all the way, full sail flat. The main has 10% draft with the outhaul about 97%, boom just a bit off to leeward using the sheet with the traveler centered. I know you cannot see all the main which is a problem. But is there any suggestions you have regarding this set-up. I believe that we have quite a bit of heel here (30% or so) and the boat speed was about 7.5+kts (towing a dinghy).

 

[RichH]

Thanks a bunch RichH. But there are some things you mention that I need clarification on. So let me show you how ignorant I am. First off I have not heard of "midcord" tell tales but from what I read it sounds like the ones that are in the "middle" of the sail. If so yes I have applies a full set to my main. Strangely enough the PO had none. I watch them alot to see how the sail is powered up.

Second your statement about "flat sails in light winds" is contrary to what I have read but I find that many times in light winds I can get all the tell tales on the Jib flowing straight out when I flatten the sail. (Car full back).

But I have to admit the lights are beginning to come on in this old head! Your statement regarding FLAT and FULL are beginning to explain some issues we have regarding performance. Unfortunately application of this has to wait for a few months which is going to drive me crazy! Thanks

The ultimate simplicity of watching and reacting to tell tales and taking steps in sail shape and trim to get/keep the tales flying 'perfect' is ALL that is needed. Its just sometimes that we have to leave 'preconceived' notions behind and simply follow the aerodynamic 'truth' of tell tales ... and sometimes a 'hint' from others of which way to make the initial adjustments to get to aerodynamic 'truth'. After that its quite easy. ;-)

 

[Don Guillette]

Nodak7: Nice picture. Jib looks good - no scallops.

To bring the boat back on it's feet just GRADUALLY drop the traveler down (change the angle of attack). You can "dial in" the amount of heel you want or don't want. Using the traveler will cut your speed a bit. You could ease the mainsheet but I don't like using the mainsheet because that sail trim control changes the shape of the sail. Using the traveler doesn't change the shape of the sail.

 

[Don Guillette]

A Tampa, FL beginner sailor called me this morning and stated he couldn't understand why the traveler wouldn't change the shape of the sail. I could have told him to pop on down to his boat, raise the main and shove the traveler from side to side and he'd see that the shape of the mainsail doesn't change but I decided to give him an anaolgy, which I've used many times but he never read it. if he didn't read it maybe some other mates haven't either.

Picture your screen door in the garage. There is a grove in the floor and a pin in the outside corner of the door that rides in the groove. When you open and close the screen door does the shape of the screen change? Obviously, it does not. The traveler is the same as the screen door.

I told him to check it out the next time he's sailing.

 

[Marc14857]

Nodak7

While I am not an expert on sail trim I have learned a few things about my H44 with in mast main which is very similar to your 41DS. Perhaps the most interesting piece of advice that I can give you is that in winds between ~ 5 to 12 knots, having a deep belly makes a big big difference in performance. The error I often make is that I think I have I have a deep belly but often don't realize that if I induce more draft the performace increases significantly. I sometimes think that I have overdone the draft by looking at the shape but the performance is always better. On the outboard section of my boom their are calibration marks that give you an idea where the outhaul block is positioned and how much belly is in the sail. Most times I have the block forward of these calibration marks by 2 or 3 inches. We do start to flatten the sail between 12 and 18 knots and start reefing above that. Our boom vang is almost always fairly tight unless we are on a broard reach or deeper.
You have recieved a lot of good advice here but I wanted to let you know what works for us with a similar setup to yours.

Marc

 

[Nodak7]

Marc thanks a bunch. Always good to hear from someone with the same rig. What do the calibration marks look like and what are their spacing. The only "mark" I have on my boom is the black tape indication that the outhaul is all the way back. I think you can see that in the picture I attached to one of my entries to Don. Is that what you are speaking of? Interesting that a bigger belly would help since I thought a flatter sail with minimum draft was the answer in higher winds. This spring I planned on putting other black indication lines (3) like it for reefing marks. So I can be consistent on where to place the outhaul when reefing. As far as reefing we usually start at 20kts and go from there. Of course dependent on how far the Admiral will let me take her over. I have noticed that the speed increases as I reef (thus the need for the additional marks) but I am never wanting to slow down long enough to do it. Kind of an "approach/avoidance" thing.

 

[Albanach]

"Albanach, what's your weather like this time of the year? We're leaving for your neck of the woods on 11/4. We land in Sydney and board the cruise ship for a tour of your country and New Zealand. We end the cruise in Auckland."

Don – Sorry I could not respond earlier to your enquiry re Sydney weather.

The only description for it is as per that favorite weather standby: Variable. We just had a summer week in the mid 20C, up to 35C and now dropped again to about 16C with rain. Sometimes 4 seasons in a day. April is usually still pleasant, except for this year, when upon my return from Europe on the 13.4. (what a coincidence?) we had unusual winter weather.


Pleased to hear you are visiting ‘Down Under’. Sounds a good cruise. If I can be of any assistance with any local info or in any other way, I ‘d be glad to be of help. If so, let me know and I shall give you my email address.

 

[Marc14857]

Nodak7

Here is a picture of the scale at the end of the boom on my H44. Sorry for the delay...had to fight the October snow to get to the boat today.

Marc

 

[rrranch]

I'm glad I found this. We recently got a nice Ranger 29 and liveaboard and sail several times a week in Corpus. I took a couple lessons from the last owner who always ran with tight and close sails no matter the wind. For some reason he didn't like going out in high wind or low wind though. I got playing around with the boat taking lessons from another man and learning the way you are saying and it makes a huge difference. We've sailed down the ICW in almost no wind and overtaken everything with sails in very light wind now. I get nervous over 16 knots wind or so and reef the main down and still make hull speed most of the time. It's nice when someone teaches you right like you are. I'm still learning but this thread helps a lot.