Loose footed mainsail

[Nodak7]

Don, my main is furling so it is loose footed. If I understand the dynamics correctly is light winds I should allow the sail to be full and move away from the boom. In High and medium winds it should be tighter and closer to the boom. I have experimented with this and it just does not seem to make any difference in boat speed and as a matter of fact if I make my sail fuller in light winds I lose speed. I have played with it with a number of times and just cannot seem to make a difference. Also when should I tension or loosen the boomkicker. Again it seems to make little difference. Any hints or tricks. BTW - The boat has a B&R Rig without a backstay.

 

[Don Guillette]

Nodak7: Nice looking boat!! Wish I could see the top of your sails. You'll see why in a minute. If a sailor can sail in light air he can sail in anything.

See my response to Ross in the most recent thread. You've got half of it right - in the higher wind ranges you want to start flatening the sails. In effect you're depowering the sails. At a small boat convention I was speaking at last Feb at Lake Havasu, AZ, a ship mate asked "suppose I don't want to depower my sails in those conditions and want to add more power, what then?". His wife was with him at the time and I asked her if she liked sailing in that manner and she said NO, so I told him "if you like sailing like a maniac and without your wife then have at it and induce as much power as your boat will take - before it breaks!!".

What we're talking about is DRAFT DEPTH (belly). We could use tighter and closer but it's better to use the correct terms so everyones on the same page. In very light winds the wind doesn't have the power to get around the sails and they stall so the sails have to be flat if you want to move the boat forward. As the wind pipes up you want to induce a little belly, which powers up the sail. You have to be careful because if you induce too much belly you'll stall the sails. The higher the wind goes the more draft depth you induce - up to a point and that point is about 25%.

With the boom kicker, which I've never used but I think it works like a boom vang, you're working with another element of sail trim and that's TWIST. When you crank on the boom vang you're closing the top 1/3 of the sail (flatening) and you're powering up the sail so the entire length is driving. When you ease the boom vang you're opening the top 1/3 and spilling air thus depowering the sail since only the bottom 2/3 is driving. Form your hand in a salute and turn your fingers to the right. You've just OPENED up the sail. Turn your fingers to the left and you've CLOSED it. I hate to have to use open and close but that's what it's called. I don't like using draft depth, draft position, angle of attack and twist but I'm stuck with those terms also.

All the sail trim controls for the main and jib work together adjusting 4 elements (draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack) and a mate has to know which controls adjust what elements, how they relate to each other or they end up working against each other. I used the analogy yesterday of jambing a sport car shift in second and flooring the accelerator and then pulling up the emergancy brake. If you start to induce draft depth and power up the sails and then twist the sails off and spill power, you're the guy driving the sports car!! I know your not but I couldn't resist.

Does every beginner to intermediate reading this thread understand what is ment by say 25% draft depth or 50% draft position because I'm stuck with those percentages also? If not, sing out and I'll explain it.

 

[simpsoned]

Sing along with Don?

Don, Sorry I can't carry a tune in a bucket, but I'm singing anyway...I have problems dealing with the draft sometimes and get messed up with positon of the "sweet spot" on the main...I usually end up over trimming in light air...my wife doesn't like going faster in heavy winds, so I usually end up reefing and spilling air for her...which lets the dogs have the couch instead of me...
Thanks
Ed Simpson
Skipper (when she lets me)
S/V Das Dawg Haus

 

[Nodak7]

Thanks Don. It will take me a little bit to digest your response. I think I understand what you are saying and your analogy is very good. However I feel like a driver that does not know how to control the different parts of his body so I may be braking and trying to accelerate at the same time. Especially in light winds and extra especially when pointing on a starboard tack.

I make good speed in high winds, fair speed in Medium winds and poor in light winds. But it has been improving. I refer to your sail trim folder quite a bit but it seems to be hit or miss. This might be the times when I am putting the gas and brakes on at the same time.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Same thing, same question, same answer, regardless of loose footed or not.

This is what Don was referring to: http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=134940

 

[Don Guillette]

Nodak7: Please don't take offence, and this is coming from a guy who sometimes has to take it in the neck because it goes with the forum, but you are the driver that doesn't understand yet how all the controls on his car works. All is not lost because sail trim isn't nuclear research, which goes on forever. Sail trim is like learning to ride a bike. Once you learn how to ride or the sail trim lights go on, that's it.

Here's how the sail trim lights went on for me. I was putting the cart before the horse. I knew how to adjust the sail trim controls, anyone can push or pull them, but I didn't know what THEY WERE ADJUSTING and I didn't know which sail trim control adjusted WHAT because I didn't know WHAT was. Once I figured out the WHAT, the light came on. The first chapter of my book deals with the WHAT and at the end of the chapter I explain that if you don't understand the WHAT don't continue because sail trim will never make any sense.

You can learn a ton of sail trim on this forum from guys like RichH, Stu J, Joe from San Diego and a few others but you can't learn to sail here because you're getting the info in bits and pieces. Your sail trim cart is not only in front of the horse but the horse is running backwards!! I should have called the book the Sail Trim Users MANUAL instead of Guide because it's your car manual. Many times listers don't know what to ask because they don't know what they don't know. Dennis Conner told me those very words sitting in a bar in Shelter Island. I was embarrased that I didn't know what I didn't know but he asked me if I thought I was alone. Turns out I've found over the years that I'm wasn't alone but sail trim is easy to learn when it's presented in a logical and easy to understand manner.

 

[Clark]

Nodak, you have a special challenge with a furling main. The roach is usually hollow and with no battens right? Also, you can't control mast bend; don't have a cunningham and must work only with your vang, outhaul and mainsheet. That prevents you from developing much drive from the upper 1/3 and gets ticklish as the winds drop. Try keeping some draft and bring the boom down vertically (not too hard) and down a bit on the traveler to coax some power out of what wind you may get. With that said, furling mains are for cruising ease and not much for competition. A couple of guys at our marina that race their boats so equipped, swap out their furling main with a much better shaped one for competition.

 

[Nodak7]

Don, no offense taken because we (the Admiral and I) are still learning. We are doing way better than in our old boat but like any sailor I know there is improvement to be had.
Clark, that is one of the things that I found to be a problem. Many of the suggestions I get are for adjustments I don't seem to have or do not understand how it works on a furling main. You are right the main has no battens. Someone needs to write a book specifically for furling mains.....no way that I am changing ours out. Us old guys love it. LOL

 

[Stu Jackson]

Many of the suggestions I get are for adjustments I don't seem to have or do not understand how it works on a furling main.

Someone needs to write a book specifically for furling mains.....no way that I am changing ours out. Us old guys love it. LOL

I understand. Have you ever tried a Google on "trimming furling mainsails?" Seriously, I'm sure someone has worked something out. Us geezers don't necessarily like trimming the boat incorrectly.

 

[Don Guillette]

Nodak7: I've been reviewing your post again and I realize how frustrating it can be when you try your darndest with something and can't get it to work. I know because I was in your position many years ago and sail trim drove me crazy until I figured it out and I figured it out by myself so I know it can be done.

How about this for a suggestion. I'm not familiar with your sailing location but it's got to be a pretty big place to have a Hunter41 on it and there are probably other big boats there also - maybe ones with your set up. If there are maybe you could seach them out and ask for their help. Invite them out for a sail. You have to be careful who you select because some mates are good sailors but poor communicators. Feel them out casually, before you invite them, to see if they know and, MOST importantly, can explain their onions.

I have to add, I tried the dock neighbor method many years ago and it didn't work for me. They confused the blazes out of me because they mixed up a lot of stuff an some of them, who talked a good sail trim story, turned out not to know what they were talking about.

Are their sail makers in your area? Maybe they would be another avenue to explore. You need someone to go sailing with you that understands your particular problems.

You know who I've found to be the absolute best at learning sail trim for the first time - woman!!. Here's why. They have no preconceived notions and they listen. Men have to always prove something. Mostl start out their question with "I've been sailing for 20 years " and then go on to ask me about the topping lift!! Get your wife involved - she may figure it out before you do!!

Keep punching mate. With your persistence you'll get it.

 

[Stu Jackson]

I've thought some more about this, too. The only thing I think that a roller furling main doesn't have (besides battens - sometimes, horizontal, vertical or none) is a cunningham. With a limit to how tight one can get a main halyard on those rigs, it would seem that the draft depth is controlled by the outhaul.

Otherwise, there's a traveler, mainsheet, and vang.

So, your Sail Trim Chart and book should work just fine.

 

[Don Guillette]

Nodak7: Would you be Richard Northrup from Mandan, ND? If you are please email me at yankee3223@juno.com because I have some additional info for you. How many 2006 Hunter H41DS can there be in ND!!

 

[Les]

I have had a roller furling main for almost fourteen years. My rigs have been Seldon and U.S.Spar. My boats were a Hunter 380 and presently a Hunter 27. My concern is that no one on this list ever mentions the main furling line! Let me review ALL the controls: main outhaul, main halyard, main sheet, traveler, topping lift, boom vang and boom kicker (generalized name), and roller furling line.

Point of clarification: I used the terms boom vang and boom kicker interchangeably. It use to be nothing more then a block and tackle to hold down the boom. Now they are hard devices with a spring in it to hold the boom up--in some cases replacing the topping lift.

In spite of all my above dialog, the one control of the main that most people overlook is the furling line. Once you have your sail working, should it need flattening try using your furling line rather than the outhaul or boom vang. I have at times used the furling line to flatten just a bit then raised my traveler to get a bit more curl at the top.

You don't need a cunningham with roller furling.

 

[Don Guillette]

Les: Thank you for outlining the controls that are available on a furling mainsail system - at least that's what I hope you're doing. The problem we have with the furling mainsail system is most of us on the worldwide sail trim trim forum, while we're intimately familiar with the standard sail trim controls for the main and jib including the rigid vang, are not familiar with the furling mainsail and many, including me, didn't know a main furling line even existed. Now all we have to do is figure out how it works.

RichH and Joe from San Diego and anyone else trying to help Nodak7 - do you know how this sail trim control works? Both myself and Stu J have done the best we can. I just can't visualize how a furling line would work better than the outhaul or boom vang to flatten a mainsail but what do I know.

Additionally, no boat needs a cunningham. The cunningham is the opposite of the halyard and is considerably easier for me to deal with than the halyard especially since my halyard was not led back to the cockpit. I had to go to the mast to deal with it and it was a big pain and usually I ended up with line all over the deck, plus I never got the adjustment Ianted. With the cunnigham, I could dial in exactly what I wanted.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Les, that sounds like a great idea. Not so much you don't "need" a cunningham, but one simply won't work with a furler, right?

Why the furling line instead of the outhaul? Wouldn't they do the same thing?

 

[Les]

First, it took me awhile to realize that the furling line could do more then just furl the main in. It began to dawn on me after reefing the main by using the furling line and releasing the outhaul in a number of higher winds that I could use use the furling line to flatten as well. When I did that it was a wonder. I wouldn't sail anymore without roller furling mains and jibs. I am looking into a drifter that can be already roller furled.

To answer Stu's logical question of why not just the outhaul is that that control tightens the bottom of the sail. in traditional times I would have tightened the outhaul and then cranked down on the boom vang to overall flatten the sail. Had I a cunningham I would have used it to flatten the belly of the sail.

However with a roller furling main to flatten the entire sail, the reefing line does that job from the head to the tack. It's pulling the entire luff of the sail into the mast. Rather cool. The first time I did this I was amazed at the quality of the sail shape. I now do this on a routine bases.

Case in point: a week ago Thursday I brought my H27 home from Friday Harbor in the San Juans (WA) to Bellingham. We started out at noon with no winds but as we turned te corner around Brown Island, the wind picked up--it was light airs. So we unfurled the main and the jib but kept the engine going. At this point we had a full main with a good draft in the sail. As we entered Upright Passage, I flatten the main with the furling line in order to head up wind a bit more but didn't reef. Also I just pulled in on the jib sheet a bit. Turning into East Sound near Orcus Island, we began to have winds to fifteen knots, so we let the outhaul go about two feel and then tightened once again on the furling line to flatten the sail. We held this until we got into Rosario Strait where there was just light winds. However once past Sinclair Island we began to have winds between 15 to 30 knots so we again let the outhaul go and took in on the furling line until we have perhaps a quarter of the main out and very flat. I didn't even worry about using the boom vang. We had a close reach all the way home.

I have to admit that i am getting to be a lazy sailor--we never moved the jib blocks forward or back as we probably should have and I hardly fuss with the traveler when we're just trying to go from A to B.

The little boat did the trip in a little more then four and a half hours doing about five and a half knots for twenty one nautical miles.

I really like roller furling sails and would go blue water with them. Not going to happen, though.

 

[Nodak7]

Nodak7: I've been reviewing your post again and I realize how frustrating it can be when you try your darndest with something and can't get it to work. I know because I was in your position many years ago and sail trim drove me crazy until I figured it out and I figured it out by myself so I know it can be done.

How about this for a suggestion. I'm not familiar with your sailing location but it's got to be a pretty big place to have a Hunter41 on it and there are probably other big boats there also - maybe ones with your set up. If there are maybe you could seach them out and ask for their help. Invite them out for a sail. You have to be careful who you select because some mates are good sailors but poor communicators. Feel them out casually, before you invite them, to see if they know and, MOST importantly, can explain their onions.

I have to add, I tried the dock neighbor method many years ago and it didn't work for me. They confused the blazes out of me because they mixed up a lot of stuff an some of them, who talked a good sail trim story, turned out not to know what they were talking about.

Are their sail makers in your area? Maybe they would be another avenue to explore. You need someone to go sailing with you that understands your particular problems.

You know who I've found to be the absolute best at learning sail trim for the first time - woman!!. Here's why. They have no preconceived notions and they listen. Men have to always prove something. Mostl start out their question with "I've been sailing for 20 years " and then go on to ask me about the topping lift!! Get your wife involved - she may figure it out before you do!!

Keep punching mate. With your persistence you'll get it.

Don, yes our lake is large but not well populated. (Two Marinas for 153 miles) There is only one other boat on the whole lake with a Furling Main and he is really not a resource I can use (read...not a very good sailor and not confident with his rig). Also there are no sail makers or even dealers within 500 miles. There are however a few very good sailors in our group and I am watching their trim all the time. Occasionally we sail on each others boats and it is instructional when we do. Unfortunately none of them are familiar with furling mains and their peculiarities. So it is up to us to "teach" ourselves and get our hints from experts like you.....LOL. As for sailing conditions it is best described as "gusty". Totally undeveloped and absolutely beautiful. We are spoiled here. Unfortunately the season is way to short!

 

[Nodak7]

Clark, my boomkicker is normally collapsed completely. When the boom is off midship it is fine but When the main is out I really have no way pulling down on the boom to flatten the main. How do I flatten the main when it is past the traveler.

Les, I have used the furling line to "flatten" the main and your right it does work but it also reduces the main significantly for every inch it is furled in. Seems to be counter productive. Besides that I then have the same issue mentioned above.

 

[Don Guillette]

Nodak7: The ability to flatten the main is acheived by the use of a RIGID VANG and it comes into its own in the situation you describe - when the boom is outside the rails. A soft boom vang won't work because of the pulling angle but a rigid vang doesn't care where the boom is located. You crank on a rigid vang and the boom comes down.

Garhauer Marine sells a great rigid boom vang

 

[RichH]

Nodak
Maybe I can make this simpler for you ... and with as few words as possible.

FLAT, low/little 'amount of draft' for 'light winds' .... you can only 'see' a separation stall through the use of tell tales. Light winds is a 'special case' wherein the energy in light winds is insufficient to keep the flow on the leeside of sails 'attached' ..... watch the leeside telltales @ 'midcord' to set proper amount of draft in light winds while you watch the speedo for max. speed. FLAT sails in LIGHT winds !!!!!!

FLAT for 'speed' in 'flat water' - HIGH GEAR.

FULL/max. draft for 'punch' (even when reefed or DEEP reefed !!!!) - LOW GEAR

Balance between full/flat by watching the tell tales AND speedo for 'maximum possible' speed.
Amount of Draft controls between Power (low gear) or Speed (high gear).
Light winds are a special case - 'separation stalls' and the air flow become 'un-attached' to the midcord lesside.

--------
How much outhaul tension for all the above?
If you have a FULL set of tell tales (applied to luff/midcord/leech) with all the tell tales 'flying perfectly', you watch the leeward 'midcord' telltales (AND the speedo) ... generally you decrease outhaul tension while watching the tell tales to 'drop' (denoting an invisible separation stall) then increase the outhaul tension until the midcord tales fly perfectly --- 'straight back' AND the speedo reading becomes its *maximum*.
Too much draft and the midcord leeside tales will become 'agitated' and then 'drop' or hang loose (sep. stall) ... and the speedo will show less speed.