I have any opportunity to purchase a new loose footed main to replace my worn out regular main. Is there any disadvantage to the loose footed for a cruiser? It has two reef points and is full battened. I currently have the original main with the slugs. Thanks. Bill Lady Di Hull 525
Loose footed main
- Thread starter Patti8727
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- Jan 22, 2008
- 519
According to Royce
a loose footed main is an advantage as you have more control over sailshape without the induced factor of a sailtrack along the boom. I am not sure I agree with him, but I understand his logic as he explains it in Sailing Illustrated Vol 1, p116-117.
a loose footed main is an advantage as you have more control over sailshape without the induced factor of a sailtrack along the boom. I am not sure I agree with him, but I understand his logic as he explains it in Sailing Illustrated Vol 1, p116-117.
I just redid my main to have it loose footed
and I am very happy. I have tons more capability to "belly" out my mainsail than I ever did. It was almost impossible to loosen up the foot of the mainsail before with the bolt rope foot I used to have. I have a fully battened main and a the Dutchman mainsail control system and everything works fine. I wish I did it earlier
and I am very happy. I have tons more capability to "belly" out my mainsail than I ever did. It was almost impossible to loosen up the foot of the mainsail before with the bolt rope foot I used to have. I have a fully battened main and a the Dutchman mainsail control system and everything works fine. I wish I did it earlier
Mates: I've had this discussion a million times over the past years and, for my money, there is not a snots worth of difference between a bolt rope main and loose footed main - especially on a standard prodution boat. Last year I watched the Congressional Cup race in Long Beach. These boats are matched Catalina boats that race head to head in match races. As luck would have it, I was having the bolt rope vs loose footed argument (should have been a discussion) with a mate but I did not have anything to back up my argument but an opinion and neither did he so we were both blowing smoke. You can watch the Congressional Cup races from the Belmont Pier and actually look right down into the cockpits of the boats as they jockey for position on the starting line. As I'm watching all this, I noticed that 2 of the 12 boats were loose footed and 1 of the loose footed was matched against a bolt rope. I watched these two boats complete the entire course and you know what happened - nothing. The ended up in a dead heat. The next day I watched a similiar match up and the same thing happened - they ended up almost in a dead heat, with the bolt rope barely edging out the loose footed boat, which means nothing. The thing is, these guys really know what they are doing and if loose footed was any real advantage they would all be doing it. The reason the really big boys (America Cup) don't use the loose foot is because of something called "shelf effect". They are trying to trap as much air as they can and prevent it from leaking around the boom. Next time you watch an America Cup race check out the size of the boom. I'm not sure shelf effect is even a factor on a production boat. The reason I like the bolt rope is I was brought up up it and I'm too old to change. So Bill, if you can get the loose footed main for a good price - go for it as you won't go wrong with it.
Don, I respectfully disagree.
My 1999 Catalina 36 MKII was almost impossible to get *any* loosening of the the foot of my mainsail. In theory for sail trim you might be right, but the **reality** is that most production boats the bolt ropes have way too much friction. Trust me, All I need to do is take you out on my boat with my loose footed mainsail and another C36 with the bolt rope mainsail. You WILL see a difference, and it has NOTHING to do with the purchase of my outhaul (I have plenty of that and can pull the foot of my mainsail drum tight). It has to do with the excessive friction of the bolt rope. The ONLY way I could **loosen** the tension on the foot of my mainsail was to stand up on the deck and physically PULL the clew of mainsail forward. What a pain that is !!! The loose foot moves much easier forward, thus the adjustment is easily made. So I will say you might be right in theory, but incorrect in the reality of easily loosening the bolt rope main. And you have to admit yourself and with your sail trim guide that the outhaul is an important sail trim adjustment. But if easing the outhaul in moderate winds don't move the clew one inch then its useless, thus the loose footed main is superior.
My 1999 Catalina 36 MKII was almost impossible to get *any* loosening of the the foot of my mainsail. In theory for sail trim you might be right, but the **reality** is that most production boats the bolt ropes have way too much friction. Trust me, All I need to do is take you out on my boat with my loose footed mainsail and another C36 with the bolt rope mainsail. You WILL see a difference, and it has NOTHING to do with the purchase of my outhaul (I have plenty of that and can pull the foot of my mainsail drum tight). It has to do with the excessive friction of the bolt rope. The ONLY way I could **loosen** the tension on the foot of my mainsail was to stand up on the deck and physically PULL the clew of mainsail forward. What a pain that is !!! The loose foot moves much easier forward, thus the adjustment is easily made. So I will say you might be right in theory, but incorrect in the reality of easily loosening the bolt rope main. And you have to admit yourself and with your sail trim guide that the outhaul is an important sail trim adjustment. But if easing the outhaul in moderate winds don't move the clew one inch then its useless, thus the loose footed main is superior.
We have had our loosefooted main for about
four years. Ours has two full battens and two partial battens. We like it but everyone has a different opinion. It's easier for us to trim with the outhaul since there is no friction from a boltrope and it's also easier to reef. Just my 2 cents...
four years. Ours has two full battens and two partial battens. We like it but everyone has a different opinion. It's easier for us to trim with the outhaul since there is no friction from a boltrope and it's also easier to reef. Just my 2 cents...
Tom S; If the bolt rope is actually preventing the foot of the sail to move forward then you have no choice but to sail loose footed. Normally, the force of the wind will generally cause the forward movement on its own once the outhaul is released. I agree that the outhaul is one of the most important sail trim controls for the mainsail because it controls the bottom 2/3 of the sail. It is also the most under used sail trim control on the boat, especially on Catalina's which have the internal outhaul system, because 50% or more of them don't work in the first place and are jambed in some position. The only way to fix them is convert to an external system (as I have) or take the boom apart and modify the system. The crappy aluminum slide Catalina installs doesn't help the problem either. When you couple all that with the downward pull on the aluminum slug, which causes the slug to dig in when you pull it back, it is no wonder the system is ineffective. If the bolt rope prevents the foot from sliding, then loose footed is superior. Actually, anything would be superior to something that does not work but boat for boat (one with a loose footed system and the other with a functioning bolt rope) neither system is superior - they are equal. I've raced for a number of years in the Catalina 30 National Regattas, which is the closest thing to head to head racing, against loose footed boats and we felt they did not have any advantage over us. If we had thought they had an advantage we'd have switched in an instant. We have never been beaten by a loose footed boat and the worst we've ever finished is 2nd. This year the C30 National event will be held in San Francisco in Oct and I'm hoping for a first. I need a first before I get too old and feeble to crank on a mainsheet!!
More thoughts
Last summer I bought new sails and the manufacturer's rep said it's a toss-up between the two, indicating his preference for a shelf foot to keep rainwater from dripping the length of the foot and its better flaking characteristics. However, I decided to try the loose foot (with full battens) and have been very happy with my choice. The sail seems easier to read, and I agree with Tom that it is much easier to adjust, and thus encourages adjustment. Perhaps, Don, the leakage of pressure under the gap at the bottom is compensated for by the small differences in improved shaping - thus overall performance is about the same. Having gotten used to it, I'd never go back to a shelf-footed design unless there were additional incentives. One aspect of a loose-footed main that is usually not mentioned, however, is that all of the sail's force on the foot is concentrated at the tack pin and the clew slug (and outhaul), so with a mid-boom sheeting set-up you need to be aware of the forces involved. The end of the boom is being pulled up and out, and the center of the boom is being pulled down and in by the mainsheet and the vang. There is a lot of upward leverage on the boom from the bail out, and if it has been weakened in any way it can break at the bail attachment bolts. Don't ask how I know.
Last summer I bought new sails and the manufacturer's rep said it's a toss-up between the two, indicating his preference for a shelf foot to keep rainwater from dripping the length of the foot and its better flaking characteristics. However, I decided to try the loose foot (with full battens) and have been very happy with my choice. The sail seems easier to read, and I agree with Tom that it is much easier to adjust, and thus encourages adjustment. Perhaps, Don, the leakage of pressure under the gap at the bottom is compensated for by the small differences in improved shaping - thus overall performance is about the same. Having gotten used to it, I'd never go back to a shelf-footed design unless there were additional incentives. One aspect of a loose-footed main that is usually not mentioned, however, is that all of the sail's force on the foot is concentrated at the tack pin and the clew slug (and outhaul), so with a mid-boom sheeting set-up you need to be aware of the forces involved. The end of the boom is being pulled up and out, and the center of the boom is being pulled down and in by the mainsheet and the vang. There is a lot of upward leverage on the boom from the bail out, and if it has been weakened in any way it can break at the bail attachment bolts. Don't ask how I know.
Mates: The following is on the fringe of this subject and is probably only of interest to Catalina 30 owners, but might be of value to anyone that has a cranky working outhaul or one that does not work at all. As I've previously mentioned I think the outhaul on the C30 stinks and I converted mine to an external system. I friend of mine, Max Munger, who is the sect/tres of the C30 national ass'n and who I race with at C30 National events has the best and most trick system I've seen. What he did was mount a short track at the end of the boom and he attached a small Garhauer car to the track. He had to have the clew of the sail modified (notched out) but that was no big deal. His system works slicker than snot and is one big improvement step up from the external system. He system get rid of the cheesy aluminum slug that does nothing but bind up.
Thanks
Thanks to everyone for your advice. I think I'm going to get the sail and add this to my many learning experiences in sailing.
Thanks to everyone for your advice. I think I'm going to get the sail and add this to my many learning experiences in sailing.
loose foot superior
i agree with both sides to a degree. the racers often sail an upwind course followed by a spinnaker run. i don't usually see a lot of beam or broad reaching in races. on these courses, the sail upwind is rather flat (this is easily achievable with loose foot or bolt rope. in down wind mode, it is a non-lift stall.....still want to catch as much air as possible....out haul pretty far out. the real beauty of a loose foot comes in broad reaching and beam reaching in light air. you can match the curve of the headsail to create a perfect envelope. also, explain how the bottom part of the sail can have draft if it is forced into a straigt line along the boom. i know a shelf will do it, but how many production boats come with a racing main with a shelf? as usual, all of this in my opinion only.
i agree with both sides to a degree. the racers often sail an upwind course followed by a spinnaker run. i don't usually see a lot of beam or broad reaching in races. on these courses, the sail upwind is rather flat (this is easily achievable with loose foot or bolt rope. in down wind mode, it is a non-lift stall.....still want to catch as much air as possible....out haul pretty far out. the real beauty of a loose foot comes in broad reaching and beam reaching in light air. you can match the curve of the headsail to create a perfect envelope. also, explain how the bottom part of the sail can have draft if it is forced into a straigt line along the boom. i know a shelf will do it, but how many production boats come with a racing main with a shelf? as usual, all of this in my opinion only.
One more advantage
One advantage to a loose foot that has nothing to do with performance: It is easier to install and remove. Many racers remove their mains after every race, so rolled or flaked it can be lifted right off the boom with the battens still in ready to use next day. Here in Florida it is becoming more popular with cruisers especially with full battens. The ability to remove the sail intact, and stow it in the cabin should a storm or hurricane threaten, saves not only time but energy.
One advantage to a loose foot that has nothing to do with performance: It is easier to install and remove. Many racers remove their mains after every race, so rolled or flaked it can be lifted right off the boom with the battens still in ready to use next day. Here in Florida it is becoming more popular with cruisers especially with full battens. The ability to remove the sail intact, and stow it in the cabin should a storm or hurricane threaten, saves not only time but energy.
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