Looking towards the Horizon.....

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May 23, 2004
3,319
I'm in the market as were . Colonial Beach
Lately I have been thinking about selling my current boat. I have a 1990 Catalina 30. I love the boat but I have been thinking that I may like to do some SMALL blue water sailing and I don't think that my 30 foot boat would be okay for it. I am not thinking of a circumnavigation or anything like that, I just was thinking of Hampton to Bermuda and someday the Bahamas. Another consideration in this idea is the fact that I have hit some nasty weather during some of my sailing trips. I hit 35-40 knot sustained winds off of Smith Point in the Chesapeake Bay one trip and I was heading into the Potomac towards home. This year I hit 25 knots sustained with higher gusts when I was sailing towards the Pax River from Oxford, MD. My boat made it through without damage but it was sure a nerve racking situation. I carry a 150% roller furling jib and I have one reef point on the main but I can say that if I re-do my sails I would go with a 135% on my roller furling and 2 reef points in the main! I really don't care about going really slow in light winds (worst come to worst you can always use the motor if you need to make distance). If I was to do this I would want to go to a heavier boat but I would want to keep the cost in the same ballpark at my Catalina 30. This would put me in a boat between 35 and 38 feet in the 1980s. I am unsure if going to that vintage would be a good thing because you have more engine hours, greater possibility of blisters on the hull, and other maintenance issues that make me nervous. The other factor is that I do most of my sailing single handed and even when my wife is along she really doesn't do much crew work. I am sure that I could handle a larger boat by myself. I think that I like a very classic design (Island Packet, Cabo Rico, Liberty, and Tayana are a few makers that I like the looks of). I like that big beefy look! I am still young and I have between 16 and 20 years until I retire. I seriously want to make a run to the Bahamas the first year I retire (I will be between 46 and 50 years old). I know that if I was to stay with my current boat I could even make the Bahama run by using the ditch. I am in a research stage of this idea and I have been looking around at boats and prices on the net. I guess the next phase will be going out in person to look at some of these boats. I like the fact that my boat has an open floor plan and it has a lot of room for a 30 foot boat (probably more than most older boats in the 35-38 foot range). The older boats have more storage and, for the most part, are built stronger. As with anything money is always a consideration. I wouldn't want to buy an older boat and spend a fortune fixing it up, but I can't afford to buy a newer boat that is build like a classic bluewater boat. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
 

Mike B

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Apr 15, 2007
1,013
Beneteau 43 Baltimore, MD
B&Cs

Make a list of the Benefits and Concerns you have with your Catalina 30. Decide which are nice to have, need to have and critical to have. Consider what you can do to compensate for the shortfalls you discover. Once you have all your data organized do a comparison against potential replacements. Build a list of all the candidates against the Catalina and of course against your criteria. You can build a fairly comprehensive search model that will help select the candidates. I think once you see all the data laid out the answer will be clear. Good luck! Mike
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,344
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Either

Keep your boat and get the sails you have in mind, maybe even a smaller jib and 3 reef points in the main, OR Get a Catalina 34 and do the same thing. Great dreams, keep them alive. :)
 

CalebD

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Jun 27, 2006
1,479
Tartan 27' 1967 Nyack, NY
It is nice that you can consider this kind of move

up to a larger boat with 'blue water' capability. I have an old Tartan 27 from 1967 which is built quite heavily but would prefer something larger for going offshore to Bermuda or the Bahamas as well. You definitely want at least two reef points on your main and maybe even a set of storm sails as well. A smaller reefing head sail would also be a plus. I was out in the bay this year on a friends 32' Endeavor in gale warnings around the South/Rhode Rivers (near Annapolis) with one reef in the main and partially furled genny. It handled the weather quite well and I was impressed by this boat as being more 'blue water' ready than my own. They make some larger models and there are a number available. I would also consider adding the Tartan 34,35, 37 to your list of boats that you might consider. While being a bit more costly they are also built for the job as are Pacific Seacraft, Hood and Canadian Seacraft unless you want to start looking at Swans($$$$). Good luck researching all of this.
 
May 23, 2004
3,319
I'm in the market as were . Colonial Beach
Hey Stu

I don't think that I would want to make a bluewater type passage, such as Bermuda, in my Catalina 30 or a Catalina 34. All be it the Catalina 34 is built more like a boat that would be okay for that, the Catalina 30 is built as a coastal cruiser. Don't think that the boat was designed for this. I guess if you had a good weather window but keeping good weather for 6 days or more is not as much planning as it is luck! I have already gotten a spare headsail (a 110% that will probably furl okay down to 100% or maybe even 90%). Would rather wait to replace the main then spend the money on the current one to put in another reef point!
 
Jun 7, 2007
875
Pearson- 323- Mobile,Al
Sail Calculator on the net

The sail calculator allows you to compare boats by the numbers. Things like motion comfort and capsize ratios. The numbers are a good place to start. By the numbers a Catalina 34 is a coastal boat as is the Catalina 30. You can also pick your numbers and the calculator will give you a list of boats.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
If you are serious about a different boat

then you should look hard at an Alberg 35. There are quite a few on the Bay and they are without peer. When I buy new sails I intend to order 4 reefs in the main and 3 in a hank on jib. That way I could reduce to storm sails without having to change sails.
 
B

Benny

The Catalina 30 is a very adequate boat

for what you want to do. Going to a vintage boat even if larger will not put you in a better situation. Perform some upgrades to the the boat with offshore cruising in mind. Your 1990 standing rigging maybe still good but its 17 years old and should be replaced and strengthened with upgraded wires and components. Go ahead and get a new set of sails with a working jib and at least two reef points in the main. Replace all your lines; halyards, sheets, furling line, reefing lines, traveller lines and boom vang. Replace all through the hulls and valves and survey the transducers through the hull and the shaft tube. Check the rudder and service the steering mechanism. Service the winches and inspect all blocks and sheaves includying the top of the stick. Insure the hatches and port holes are in good working and not likely to accidentally fly open. Consider installing some spreader lights to improve the visibility of your boat at night. Replace all life lines and tighten stanchions and pulpits. Set anchor points for jacklines and thrders. Prepare a ditch bag, unless you plan to do a lot of cruising rent rather than purchase a life raft. Pack a hand held VHF, a manual watermaker, an EPIRB, a torch, a knife and fishing line and hooks. Equiping the boat with radar would increase your visbility of other traffic and that of weather systems. Make a list of filters and spare parts you would like to have with you and purchase them. It seems to me you are somewhat hesitant about sailing without the help of an able crew and you are correct to be. Teach your wife how to sail, how to handle the boat and navigation; should you become disabled to mal de mer, suffer an accident or get sick she would need to be able to operate the boat. Also and more practical is the fact that she should be able to stand a watch allowing you necessary rest. Bringing the boat back from the Bahamas I once took a young experienced sailor with me as a backup, it turned out he was the one that got sick, but it very well could have been me. The crossing took longer than anticipated because of strong head winds which forced a change in destination from Ft Laudardale to Palm Beach. I collapsed in my bunk after we made port that night. Even if you get a full keel offshore boat you will need to perform all the upgrades and improvements. Be mindful that an offshore boat will not perform as well in coastal and bay waters so if you are only going to be taking a trip or two then it would give you another reason for keeping your Catalina. As far as weather, go with the seasons and keep informed via satellite or SSB radio. The probability for encounters with strong storms at sea are rather low and if you exercise prudence and make well informed decisions you should do just fine. Just a few thoughts, I'm sure others will add valuable recommendations.
 
May 23, 2004
3,319
I'm in the market as were . Colonial Beach
Blue Water in a Catalina 30?

I know that my boat can take some serious stuff. That 35-40 knot storm had 8 foot waves that were steep and it was nasty. The ocean can deal out a lot worse stuff than that. Has anyone heard of people doing Hampton to Bermuda in a Catalina 30? I have heard of it in a Pearson that was about that size (but Pearson has a rep for a good heavy build). I hear of a lot of blue water sailors that keep talking about radar but what do they do if it goes down? You can have power issues and other things. It seems that the more dependant that you are on the technology the more vulnerable you are. I have a GPS system on my boat but if it goes down I have paper charts and I know how to navigate coastal waters (I have no clew about navigating in open water, yet). Who knows. Maybe I will wait about 10 years and see how I feel. If I still want to go to a heavier boat I will have saved more money and I will look for one that has already had most of the upgrades to make it a safer boat. As far as a blue water boat preforming poorly in coastal waters, I don't see it. It may not be as fast as a lighter coastal cruiser, but I am not racing it. The nice thing would be that I would have a huge backbone to fall back on if the weather got nasty (I have a tendency to find nasty weather, even when it isn't forecasted).
 

higgs

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Aug 24, 2005
3,736
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
Offshore boats

The fact that you are not confident in it is reason enough to look for something else. I think you have a pretty good handle on what boats are more suitable. Almost anything can do it - a Catalina 27 has circumnavigated - but these boats are not considered offshore by the sailing community or industry. As mentioned earlier, you can get an idea from doing some calculations. try this site http://www.gosail.com/boatRating.php
 
Jan 5, 2004
95
Hunter 33 Huntington NY
Hell,

Tania did New York to Bermuda and a whole lot more in a 26' Contessa. Properly equipped, and with good weather, you could do your trip in a Catalina 30.
 
Jun 7, 2007
875
Pearson- 323- Mobile,Al
Catalina 30 a Great Boat!!!!

But it is not blue water!!! My Pearson 323 is a better blue water but even it was not designed as a blue water boat. The catalina 30 is not very comfortable at sea. In a bay or for a few hours that is OK but getting bounced around is tiring. The Catalina 34 has even a greater tendency to bounce around than the C30. Beamy and light makes for a comfortable boat at anchor but bouncy at sea. That is why I recommended the sail calculator as a first step in choosing a boat. A capsize ratio of 1.7 and a motion comfort ratio of about 30 maybe a displacement /length ration of 250-300. All of these numbers usually fall together. A narrow heavy boat just rides better and is more likely to recover from a rollover than a light beamy boat. BUT light beamy boats are usually much faster in lighter winds and more comfortable at anchor. Hitting something with a spade rudder could be a real problem at sea. A substantial skeg or even a full keel gives the rudder some protection...BUT a full keeled or even a skeg mounted rudder is much more difficult to dock. If I was in your situation I think that I would keep the Catalina 30 and plan cruises within that boat's ability. I have noticed that the blue water type of boat is usually tied to the dock. They do not make great day sailers. A Catalina 30 should be capable of going down the ditch to Florida and over to the Bahamas.
 
May 6, 2004
196
- - Potomac
Wow

Nothing like planning ahead! My two cents says Cat 30 is an outstanding vessel for a gulf stream crossing from FL to the Bahamas. Bermuda is another story. Since this is not going to happen for at least another 16 years, I would spend time researching the CHARACTERISTICS of an appropriate, off shore vessel, rather than current makes and models that fit the bill. That is because, by the time you are ready to do the deal, none of the boats capable, available and affordable today are going to be capable and available in 2025 or beyond. Notice I left out "affordable" in 2025 - today's boats will be dirt cheap, no doubt. If you are intent on looking at makes and models now, I would look at blue water boats that are brand new or close to it, now, and figure they will be affordable after the 16-20 years of depreciation consistent with you timeframe. I've added a link to a fellow who wrote about his solo trip to Bermuda in a 28 foot Cape Dory sloop (brick outhouse). Food for thought.
 
Jun 16, 2004
203
- - -
Untill you retire, with 15 years to go...

you could get a trailer sailor relatively cheap, drive down to around ft. liquirdale or key largo, and do the bahama's this year!!! (o.k., probably next year...) Tomorrow is not guranteed...the most priceless commodity is the present...I'd go while the cellular vigor is potent...while bikini's will still work w/o viagra! (not to take anything away from bikini's and viagra...you do what ya can with what ya got!)
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
You really must not enjoy your present

occupation that you would plan to retire before you are 50. Besides planning for a boat in retirement you should also plan on a new career. You can reasonably expect another 30 years after you retire if you take care of your health. That is a long time for inflation to have an ill effect on your nest egg. Consider what you would love to do if you could choose any occupation in the world and then set about preparing for it. None of the people that I have read about sailed to the exclusion of earning a living.
 
Jun 19, 2004
512
Catalina 387 Hull # 24 Port Charlotte, Florida
I can't agree more with what Benny has said here

There isn't anything more that I could add to his very comprehensive dialogue. It is complete, thorough, and to the point. I think that if you were to check out several different issues of Cruising World or a similar publication, that you would read about many folks that use a boat the same size as yours is to do what it is that you desire. If you are confortable with being on a 30 foot boat with regard to the available space, then that should suffice. From what I read in your opening of the topic and understand, is your concern about high winds and the strength of the boat and its' rigging including the existing sail inventory that you have and what you anticipate that you may encounter. From my perception, this is more of a concern of yours than is the size and room on board as well as the fact that you find yourself single handing the boat. You can single hand a larger boat if rigged properly; I single hand our 387 all the time, in fact I frequently take it out alone. I think that your 30 is as strong as it needs to be for what you want to do with it. With that in mind, something that I would consider from what I have read here from you is the topic of reefing. We have all been told that when we feel the need to reef, then we already should have done so, that's a given. You talk about your head sail, that is a 150% genoa, and the size of it and the amount of sail that you would have out during heavy winds and about getting a smaller genoa and how you reduce the size of that. I've been told that there are diffent sized genoas for different conditions and according to these sizes, various strengths of those sails. When you got the boat, did you find out from the previous owner what the sails were rated for? Have you queeried Catalina on the subject? There is nothing wrong with the 150% genoa, it is a great sail for very light conditions and the beauty of the fuller is the ability to get rid of a lot of sail in a hurry and yet still have some sail with which to continue to make way and have some degree of control. With that in mind, you have taken the step to increase your sail inventory by getting a smaller genoa and this is a plus. One of the most beneficial things that I have done is to purchase a copy of Don Guillette's book on sail trim and I recommend that book of his to everybody. The information he gives you is so much more valuable than the cost of the publication. He goes in to great depth in his discussion on this very topic and I have found the information he shared with me in the book to be one of the most valuable things that I have done to increase my understanding and knowledge of sail dynamics and the physics behind the science of it. Every time I re-read this book, I gain something additional that I can apply and see an immediate effect from. I frequently have it in the cockpit with my charts for reference which I find invaluable. Everything I have ever read or experienced about heavy winds is that there are rules of thumb with regard to reefing and when to. Although I do not have the documentation in front of me, the stats are available for you to research. Initially, as the winds increase, we start reducing sail area and get to the point where the head sail is completly put away and we are sailing with 3 reefs out of the main, and then obviously, the next thing would be to go to "bare poles" with nothing out there and out in the blue water you refer to then of course a sea anchor. I think I recall that there are degrees of reefing that should take place from 15 to 20 knots, from 20 to 25 knots, from 25 to 30 knots etc. By the time I am over 25 knots sustained, my head sail is put away and all I have out is the equivalent of a main with 2 to 3 reefs out of it ( I have an in mast furler system as well ). I have a 155% genoa and have had the boat out in 35-45 knots here in the Chesapeake Bay. During these winds, my 155% has long been furled away, in fact I get rid of it down in the mid to upper 20's and don't have much more than the equivalent of a 90% to 100 or 110% genoa out and as the winds continue to build, I continue to reduce that sail until it is put away. Something that I use as well in consideration is the amount of heel and that having the boat layed over to 35 degrees is not comfortable nor efficient, nor safe and the fact that the wind and the sail area and trim are what control the amount of list, so to keep my boat in the 5 to 10 degree range of heel for my comfort, I reduce sail area. One thing that I have done was to get my sail maker to sew in three luff cords and a pocket to contain them on the head sail. As I reduce the amount of sail, the sail rolls up tighter and reduces the size of the "ball" or "knot" formed on the furling and allows for much less turbulent air flow as evidenced with the tell tales. I put them on at the luff so as I go from a 155 to a 135 to a 110 that I have a set of tell tales just behind the furling and can see the air flow. It wasn't all that expensive and it certainly made the sail much more efficient when furled up some. Like I started with, Benny has indicated that you don't need to get rid of your 30 if you find a comfort level with it with regard to available space, just make some tuning inprovements and adjustments. I agree. BTW, I have run from Oxford over to Solomons, what a beautiful part of the bay you have up there; I just don't get up there as much as I would like. I've also been in some very high winds and 6 or better foot seas up there in Tangier Sound as well and it certainly is a beautiful part of the bay. Let us know what you wind up doing with regard to keeping your 30 or replacing it. I'd be interested to know. Good luck.
 
Jun 7, 2007
875
Pearson- 323- Mobile,Al
Ross Why do You Stay Close to Home???

Ross you have the boat and the time yet you stay close to home. Are you ever going to cast off the dock lines and go for an extended cruise?? If not now then when???? I have noticed that I am not getting younger and my strength and endurance aren't what they once were. I doubt that cruising will be an option for me if I wait another 5 years. My son's mother in law just discovered that she has breast cancer and she is only 60!!!! My Dad died at 60 and my wide's Dad died at 61 ....we are now 54!!!! If I don't go in the next two years I most likely will never go....bummer!!!!!!!!!!
 

higgs

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Aug 24, 2005
3,736
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
Not to long ago

Recently, we were all discussing the loss of a Valiant 42 on its way to Bermuda. Yes, they left late in the year, but the fact is a bad storm can hit anytime and one is out there for about a week. You are vulnerable and the Cat 30, a good boat, is no where near as toughly built as that Valiant - or the previously mentioned Contessa 26. According to Sail - or was in Cruising World, The Catalina 320 is built solid enough for what they called limited offshore work. If one spends anytime comparing A Cat 30 to a boat like a Crealock, or an Island Packet, it does not take long to see why one is considered a coastal cruiser and the other a passagemaker.
 
Jun 16, 2004
203
- - -
Ross this is a bit extreme...

And easier to write (or read)than do...but I hope, soon..to find a compromise between "bankruptcy of purse or bankruptcy of life"... "To be truly challenging, a voyage, like a life, must rest on a firm foundation of financial unrest. Otherwise, you are doomed to a routine traverse, the kind known to yachtsmen who play with their boats at sea... "cruising" it is called. Voyaging belongs to seamen, and to the wanderers of the world who cannot, or will not, fit in. If you are contemplating a voyage and you have the means, abandon the venture until your fortunes change. Only then will you know what the sea is all about. "I've always wanted to sail to the South Seas, but I can't afford it." What these men can't afford is not to go. They are enmeshed in the cancerous discipline of "security." And in the worship of security we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine - and before we know it our lives are gone. What does a man need - really need? A few pounds of food each day, heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in - and some form of working activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment. That's all - in the material sense, and we know it. But we are brainwashed by our economic system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time payments, mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our attention for the sheer idiocy of the charade. The years thunder by. The dreams of youth grow dim where they lie caked in dust on the shelves of patience. Before we know it, the tomb is sealed. Where, then, lies the answer? In choice. Which shall it be: bankruptcy of purse or bankruptcy of life?" Sterling Hayden (Wanderer, 1973) As quoted by Stuart Kiehl
 
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