Looking for some downwind advice

[SoSound]

There are two prevailing winds where (and when) we sail; dead on the nose, and dead astern. I think that I understand my choices for on the nose conditions, close hauled, and tack, tack, tack! But what can I do, beyond burning more diesel, to improve my sailing performance and reduce motoring time, when sailing dead downwind? We typically sail short handed, just two of us, and I am the only one who is even remotely concerned about sailing performance (hint - we're unlikely to be practicing too many pole jibes).

Our first boat was a First 285 (6,000 lb boat) with a 150% genoa. Our current boat is an Oceanis 34 (12,000 lb boat) with a (whopping 88 additional sf) 105% genoa. We have upgraded that, with a code zero, to 170%.

My question is; How do we get the most out of our code zero, when sailing downwind? Is there such a thing as a "simple" whisker pole rig, and jibe? Jibing the code zero, without a pole, we typically furl the code zero, jibe the mainsail, unfurl the code zero... Do I need all of the additional rigging (lifts and guys) and the accompanying learning curve that goes with a pole? Or, should I just focus on rigging and learning how to work with a mainsail preventer when sailing down wind, and forget about a whisker pole?

I was all set to order a Forespar Tri-Reacher whisker pole, and then I Googled "How to install a whisker pole"... and here I am, asking for advice, again...

 

[Joe]

No ddw with asymmetric shapes.... very slow.... the main shadows the headsail anyway. You need to perfect your jibes and sail broad reaches down wind.... just as you would going upwind. Not sure why you'd need a pole for that.... your jibes should be easy enough with one crew handling the sheets... the driver taking care of the mainsheet. Route the sheets outside the forestay... let the sail float ahead and steer the boat under it.... When gybing the main pull the sheet in, reach up and grab the tackle and pull the boom across, under control, by hand as soon as possible so you can concentrate on steering under the headsail.

The biggest difference between tacking upwind is #1 you must control the boom... upwind the boom literally minds itself. #2 the headsail sheets are NOT thrown off completely like when you're tacking.... but they are eased just far enough to clear the headstay.... it's very much like flying a kite....you just hold the sail in position out front while the driver steers the boat under it... do not try pulling the sail across with the sheet (this is true upwind also). Your inside gybe technic is fine.... but slow... because you're rolling in and out to avoid interfering with forestay. An outside gybe takes care of that.... but requires an attentive crew.

You can improve your performance and sailing angle by using your gps' vmg feature.. Insert a waypoint in your dead downwind course... the farther away the better.

 

[Apex]

Code 0 is for running higher angles, even reaching. Asym's won't need a pole, but you want a runner like an A2 do run deeper angles.
On starting to read I would have suggested using a whisker pole on the genoa. But for the Code0, run hotter angles to keep the boat moving.

 

[garymalmgren]

My question is; How do we get the most out of our code zero, when sailing downwind?

I would suggest getting a pole of some description.
Nothing fancy, secondhand would do.
First off is to sail wing and wing.
Genoa poled out one side and main let out the other with a jibe preventer rigged.
At first you don't need to rig a downhaul (kicker) but and topping lift (uphaul) is pretty useful when handling a pole.
Clip the topping lift on, connect the pole to the clew, push out and clip to the mast ring.
Then tighten the topping lift. The uphaul will save the pole from deep sixing if it goes over the side.
I think that is worth it.

Next I would try the Code zero with the main furled and see what you have for speed and control.
Maybe need the pole , maybe not.
Your method of jibing the code zero seems to work and be safe.
Which is what you should be aiming for

What I am trying to say is play around a bit.
You can ask for advice here but nothing beats hands on experimentation

All the best
gary

 

[LakeOntario270]

When sailing down wind I use my asymmetrical spinnaker and a furled main. I might get a little more speed with the main flying wing and wing but the asymmetrical really loves not being shadowed.

 

[JohnShannon]

Somebody might have "polars" for your boat. The fastest course downwind might well be at 160 degrees and then gybe, gybe gybe to go DDW. Certainly a Code 0 is not right for DDW.

 

[markwbird]

Wing on wing with a genoa. Pole out. Downhaul on. Vang on. Nearly DDW. By sailing nearly DDW you will minimize the jibes. I sail shorthanded that way. When it is time to jibe I role up the genoa, go forward and switch it to the other side and jibe and unrole it. The only thing that will really be faster is a symmetrical spin.

 

[Davidasailor26]

Somebody might have "polars" for your boat. The fastest course downwind might well be at 160 degrees and then gybe, gybe gybe to go DDW. Certainly a Code 0 is not right for DDW.

for gybing with the asymmetrical. That’s probably going to be the fastest VMG, and it will definitely feel the fastest and be the easiest to keep stable. If you really want to go DDW you could get the tri-reacher and try wing-on-wing, but that’s going to be a lot of work and investment for probably a pretty small return. Certainly reaching with the Code sail should be a better VMG than DDW with just the fractional jib.

 

[Pizzazz]

I really appreciate the above comments because I am struggling with downwind performance as well. My boat is similar, Hunter 31, 10,000 lb, I have a 155% genoa. Currently I sail wing on wing but light wind performance is not good. In stronger winds I can get to hull speed just with the genoa. Some people have suggested two genoas wing on wing, I am not sure if it will be better but it is definitely a less expensive way to go than a spinnaker.

It would be great if someone could post polars for an average Hunter/Bene/Catalina 30-35 ft boat (I do not think they change much) with different sail combinations such as main+110% genoa, main+135% genoa, main+155% genoa, main+asymmetric, main+real spinnaker. All the polars I have seen assume that you will switch to the best sail possible and most of us do not have a full set of sails.

In particular, my question is, assume that above 15-17 knots true I make close to hull speed on all points of sail and that under 5 knots I motor. In 5-15 knots of wind on the stern, how much extra speed will a symmetric spinnaker add compared to main+155% genoa and gybing. A rough guideline, something like 2 knots VMG in 5-10 knots wind speed and 1 knot of VMG in 10-15 knots of wind speed will be very helpful in justifying the cost of a new spinnaker + rigging.

 

[SoSound]

Perfect! Just the input and insights that I was hoping for! We do the inside furl/gybe because that was how we were shown how to do it, I didn't think of doing it outside, even though that is how we learned to gybe our spinnaker. BTW, we use the code zero because it's much easier to leave it in place rather than rigging and stowing it every time we want to use it. I still have the spinnaker, but should sell it (anyone interested, used twice).

I'll look into learning more about polar data and how to use it. And consider all of the other input as well. Thanks!

 

[gettinthere]

I added a code 0 instead of an asym for exactly that reason, the sacrificial cover allows you to leave it up, rigged and ready. You likely have what is often referred to as a "Cruising Code Zero" not meant for racing but an easy all around sail for light air.

I do have a Forespar Velocity pole that I have used with my CZ but not sure you need to shell out for one. How about setting your last upwind tack to get a good 160d angle downwind? Maybe make sure you'll only have one gybe?

I've never tried the gybe outside the stay with my CZ, I do the furl/unfurl but then I'm not racing and I am shorthanded.

 

[JohnShannon]

If you have a chart plotter, it should be giving you VMG to a waypoint. So try DDW then "hot it up" and see if when the VMG peaks.

 

[Whatfiero1]

I run a asymmetric for downwind and a 180 fractional on a 90' Hunter 30. Always get more speed at about 140 deg . ddw she's a pig and gets passed by everything including island packets

 

[markwbird]

My H34 does quite well downwind. Pole out with lazy sheet hooked under forward cleat and pulled tight to act as a downhaul. Vang on. Outhaul loose. Backstay loose. Jib cars all the way forward. Weight forward. Clean bottom.

 

[thinwater]

When I had a slower cat, one of my favorite tricks on rivers and nearly DDW tracks was to alternate between WAW and broad reaching. You only jibe one sail, so it is both easy and fast at AW angles of 135-180. Really sweet down a winding river.