Looking for hints ... electrical issues?

[Scott T-Bird]

This has been a frustrating year so far! This morning, I motored over to the pump out facility on the lake and had a few stops along the way for various reasons and each time I restarted the engine, I noticed less charge for the starter to the point where the last time I started it, it barely turned over before firing up. So after dinner, my wife and I went over to the boat with some beer in hand, my battery back-up pack and a volt meter to check it out some more. Some background ... we day sail, we infrequently motor for more than 10 minutes, we infrequently have the stereo on, we very infrequently ever even use any lights (either cabin or running) for more than an hour a week if we go out to relax in the evening. I don't monitor electrical use since our useage seems to be so slight. I have 2 group 27 wet cell batteries and always have them in the combined mode. When I checked the batteries, the volt meter read 12.2 & 12.3 volts so that seemed a little low but not low enough to cause starting problems. Then, no start with the battery pack either.

More background ... this winter I had the engine pulled out for a few chores and the yard put it back in before launching. So they had to reconnect the starter and alternator, I assume. I didn't like the way they installed the batteries either, so I checked the fluid (fine), and put them back in the way I wanted, re-tightening all the cables. Then she fired right up (no need for the battery pack). Satisfied, we motored out into the lake to drift, had a few beers and relaxed as it got dark, had a few cabin lights and running lights on for about an hour, and couldn't get much more than a click when we wanted to go home. The battery pack was no help.

I somehow have a feeling that I'm looking at a problem with the starter or the alternator and I'm not sure the yard even wired up everything correctly, so I will break out my book and look at the diagrams. Any thoughts?

We did get to sail home ... not exactly what my wife wanted to do, but there was no choice . With a light 3 to 5 Knot breeze, I didn't really want to hank on the genny to get moving but with a masthead rig, we barely drifted forward under main alone. When I finally hoisted the genny, it was like the engine turned on as we coasted along at about 2 to 3 knots. Of course the wind was coming straight out of our cove and I had to tack back and forth to make it to the mooring! Hope you don't mind the long long story ... I'm rarely shortwinded!

 

[Joseph Shirley]

It seems to me that I read somewhere that it takes 15 minutes of driving to recharge a car battery to the state of charge before starting the engine. I would think it takes a little longer after starting a diesel. If everything else was okay you would still be gradually draining your batteries.

Next: IT appears that you have 2 12v group 27 starting batteries with a "1/2/Both/Off" battery switch, and you have it on both. Always start your engine on only one battery, not 2, and recharge that one battery. Keep the other in reserve. With no other charging than your alternator and only running the engine as infrequently as you do, you are going to pull it down. There may be other problems as you indicate, but you should always have a spare charged battery to get you home.

Connecting the 2 together will always pull them both down.

Good luck

Joe S

 

[sailingdog]

I'd point out that the voltage is not a good way to check the state of charge on the batteries. Even a short run of the engine can leave the batteries with a surface voltage that is far higher than their actual state of charge for hours. Also, I'd ask what kind of system you use for charging the batteries on a normal basis. Not doing so is a problem because even if you have nothing connected to them, they will self-discharge to a degree.

If you haven't been regularly recharging the batteries to 100% or nearly so, chances are very good that the battery plates are sulfated and that will kill them.

 

[Capn Dave]

Ahoy Joe

Did you check the battery voltage with the engine running? Get a digital voltmeter and check the voltage to the batteries with the engine running. It should be somewhere around 14 vdc. Volts dc.
If it is less than 14vdc I would have your alternator checked and go from there.

Also what the dog said.
Do you have a shorepower charger onboard and do you charge the batteries with that?

Fair Winds
Dave

 

[Don12364]

Joe,
12.3 volts is a flat battery.
Your experience of each start being a little more difficult than the last is typical of the alternator not charging. Normally, unless starting takes a lot of cranking, subsequent starts are easier because the engine is warm and the battery has just received some charge from the previous run. Only 5 minutes running will put back the energy used and 10 minutes will give a better start next time as long as it is within an hour or so - which appears to be your situation.

My bet is the alternator is not charging or there is a loose/corroded connection somewhere in the starter circuit, however the failure to restart after using the auxiliary battery is of concern. Remember aux battery packs with light duty leads are intended to be left connected to the main battery for ten minutes before attempting a start as they rely on putting some charge back into the existing battery which then (supposedly) has the capability to produce the necessary amperage. i.e. as with those intended to be plugged into a cigar lighter socket in a car.

 

[seadaddler]

Check Batteries

Sounds like the batteries are shot not holding a good charge,you are not running the engine much to even charge them up and they may be not in very good condition to begin with.
Pull them out and take them some place where a pro can do a real good condition check of them,they may be not good and the little bit of engine running to even recharge what little power they have,start with the batteries first than one thing at a time check each charging and starting system,also check all connections to be clean and well connected.
Nick

 

[sailingdog]

12.3 VDC is not a flat battery, since a fully charged 12 VDC battery will generally be about 12.6-12.7 VDC. However, as I said earlier, even a brief charging from an alternator can leave batteries with a surface charge far higher than their true state of charge.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Thanks for replies ...

I probably understate the amount of time that we run the engine because we do take the boat out just to exercise the engine and charge batteries (which I always have in mind because of how little we use the engine to get underway to go sailing). However, the yard fully charges the batteries before launch and we have only been in the water for a month now. In fact, we have done very little sailing so far this year and compared to a normal season, I am running the engine more frequently. And for the past 5 seasons, I have used the batteries in the same manner without ever fully discharging them. That said, I bought the boat with a dead battery (in 2004) and replaced that one, and a few years later replaced the other one when it was apparently dead. I hear you about having some kind of charging system (such as solar because we are on a mooring), but our battery useage is so light, I don't believe I am ever really discharging the batteries. I've just never thought there was a need to worry about it at this point. However, I have no doubt that our type of use (never fully charging or discharging the batteries) does limit the life. Another reason I suspect that the batteries are fine is that all electical items seem to be normal. Lights are not dimming, even when attempting to start, as normally happens with discharged batteries.

I don't think I was reading the surface charge because I read it before attempting to start (got 12.3), it failed to start even with the battery pack (which has the jumper cable style cables, not the thin aligator clips, and I have started cars up without needing to leave it connected for a few minutes), I disconnected and reconnected the cables and it started right up, then after an hour of relaxation with just a few lights on, it would not start (batteries still reading 12.3). I did intend to read the meter when the engine was running, but I must have been thinking about that beer and I neglected to do it!

My son the mechanic says it sounds like a bad starter and since I have no idea how old the starter may be (it could be 25 years old) I am going to pull it out. I will also pull the batteries and have them checked out as well.

 

[sailingdog]

I probably understate the amount of time that we run the engine because we do take the boat out just to exercise the engine and charge batteries (which I always have in mind because of how little we use the engine to get underway to go sailing). However, the yard fully charges the batteries before launch and we have only been in the water for a month now.

If you are relying on the fact that the yard charges the batteries, you're going to be very disappointed. Lead-acid wet cell batteries may discharge as much as 1% per day in hot weather. If left uncharged for extended periods of time, as I stated above, the plates will sulphate and that will kill them.

In fact, we have done very little sailing so far this year and compared to a normal season, I am running the engine more frequently. And for the past 5 seasons, I have used the batteries in the same manner without ever fully discharging them. That said, I bought the boat with a dead battery (in 2004) and replaced that one, and a few years later replaced the other one when it was apparently dead. I hear you about having some kind of charging system (such as solar because we are on a mooring), but our battery useage is so light, I don't believe I am ever really discharging the batteries.

While you may not be discharging the batteries in use... just having them sit there does a pretty good job of it.

I've just never thought there was a need to worry about it at this point. However, I have no doubt that our type of use (never fully charging or discharging the batteries) does limit the life. Another reason I suspect that the batteries are fine is that all electical items seem to be normal. Lights are not dimming, even when attempting to start, as normally happens with discharged batteries.

I don't think I was reading the surface charge because I read it before attempting to start (got 12.3), it failed to start even with the battery pack (which has the jumper cable style cables, not the thin aligator clips, and I have started cars up without needing to leave it connected for a few minutes), I disconnected and reconnected the cables and it started right up, then after an hour of relaxation with just a few lights on, it would not start (batteries still reading 12.3). I did intend to read the meter when the engine was running, but I must have been thinking about that beer and I neglected to do it!

My son the mechanic says it sounds like a bad starter and since I have no idea how old the starter may be (it could be 25 years old) I am going to pull it out. I will also pull the batteries and have them checked out as well.

 

[TimCup]

Got to disagree with most of the advice-

If you have a "jumper box", and the boat still wont turn over, I have to think it's just one of 2 things:

You have a dead cell in one of the baterries, preventing the jump from working, or

you have a bad connection somewhere, also preventing the jumper from working.

If you had a low batt (regardless of whether it was undercharged from bad alternator or from under use of alternator), it would easily take the jump.

Disconnect one of the batts and try to jump the other. If it doesn't work, flop batteries around. And please, make sure your jumper is fully charged!!

cup

 

[Maine Sail]

Sounds

Sounds like a ground or positive connection issue combined with low batts..

 

[Stu Jackson]

All good input

Scott, there's really little we can do to help except for the obvious ideas expressed by the earlier respondents.

If you have an issue with how the boat is wired, you MUST do a wiring diagram.

Then see if what the yard did makes sense.

Then check all of the connections.

Then tell us what the charging parameters are - like alternator output, etc.

I hear you about having some kind of charging system (such as solar because we are on a mooring), but our battery useage is so light, I don't believe I am ever really discharging the batteries. I've just never thought there was a need to worry about it at this point.

HUH? Where do you think the return (charging) amperage was coming from? You have been horribly mistreating your batteries for too long.

I'm sorry to hear about your difficulties, but heck I thought you were reading all the dribble we've been writing about electrical systems all these years...

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Battery voltage seems to be fine ...

reading it this morning I had anywhere from 12.45 to 12.50 v for both batts checked at various times. I neglected to check the output while we had her running last night, but I've checked it on another occasion earlier this year and had over 14 v while charging. I didn't mean to imply that I rely on the yard to charge the batts. I only intended to convey the knowledge that they store the batts indoors over the winter, they top them off just before launching the boat, and we were only launched on June 8, so the batts have barely had any use this year so far. Stu, I am sure that it is hard for you to comprehend just how little we use battery power. We daysail for a few hours at a time, drawing power for starting, wind, depth and speed instruments and that's basically it. We sometimes, maybe 2 or 3 times this year so far, relax with the stereo on for half an hour and the running lights if it happens to be dark. How can we horribly mistreat batteries when they are barely even used. Compared to the useage that the batteries get, we motor more than enough to adequately charge the batteries for starting as indicated by the voltage that I have right now. I don't understand your comment about 'where do you think the return amperage was coming from?'. Maybe you could explain that because it went right past me! We run the engine often enough and long enough to adequately charge for starting and really have no other battery use, and I would bet that we could basically use one automotive battery like I do for my ski boat.

When I first noticed the trouble with a weak start, I thought that the alternator was possibly not putting out, but the voltage indicates a strong charge. I did take apart all cable connections, clean and tighten everything this morning. Last night, before sailing in, there was very weak effort to turn over and then nothing, not even a click. This morning, after cleaning all connections, not even a click once. I have no doubt that the wiring was correct as there were no problems up until yesterday morning. Plus, I checked the fuse and found it to be good. I brought my manual to run thru the procedures for checking the starter but I was frustrated by lack of understanding. I'm actually looking again and maybe I am starting to see the light. The photos show the starter and solenoid with the B & M terminals and another bracket for a wire connection. My manual refered to the these 2 terminals and the S terminal but nowhere could I find a drawing that indicated which was which. I assume the lower post is the M terminal for 'motor feed', the top post is the B terminal (for the battery cable?) which actually had the battery cable connected from the selector switch and another wire with a ring connection. I assume the bracket with a small screw used to attach a light wire on a ring connection is the S terminal which comes from the start switch.

I was attempting to read continuity and check for voltage when pressing the starter but I was getting no readings whatsoever and besides, there was no 'click' like the manual suggested there would be. I really didn't comprehend any of the procedures because I wasn't sure which terminal was which at the time and besides a few of the continuity tests made it necessary to touch the terminals of the battery and the starter at the same time which wasn't possible do to the short lengths of the leads on the multi meter (and I didn't have any wire for jury rigging). Besides, I get nervous groping around the engine with battery cables connected!

I was frustrated and convinced that my problems are with the starter so I pulled it out and brought it home.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Besides, I get nervous groping around the engine with battery cables connected!

Scott, I understand, all I was suggesting is that even with your incredibly low draw, you didn't appear to be putting much back. Your new explanation covers that. I agree. You have some other issue.

I also agree with you that it could very well be a wiring issue to your equipment. Good luck on checking out your starter.

You could disconnect the power wires at the battery ends...

I f connections are fine and the engine started sometime in the recent past, have you considered the switch to be bad, and if not, why not? From my reading our your most recent post, why not bypass the switch and see if the starter works? Unless I missed you doing that.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Thinking this out a little more ...

I've been focusing on making sure all the battery cable connections are clean and solid between the batteries, the selector switch, the grounds, and the cable from the selector switch to the starter. Come to think of it, I seem to recall that this morning when I turn the key on at the Yanmar control panel at the helm, I immediately get a strong audio alarm before pressing the starter button (the same audio alarm you get when shutting down before turning the key off). So now I'm wondering if that is normal or if it is silent for a few seconds - I'm thinking that you don't normally get that audio alarm right away, but I'm embarrassed to say that I can't recall what is normal! This is messing with my head!

Anyway, I should be reading the battery voltage when my wife is pressing the starter button and I have the positive lead on the S terminal (if I was doing it right at the time) and the negative lead grounded. The confusing part of the instruction says 'move the engine speed lever to OFF position to prevent the engine from starting'. I have no idea what that means other than having the throttle at idle and the gear selector in neutral. I was gettting no voltage whatsoever. This is supposed to indicate that the wiring from the ignition switch and fuses should be checked. The fuse was good but I didn't investigate the wiring at the ignition switch ...

It still doesn't seem to explain the gradual weakening of starting effort which I experienced at first before I got the totally dead response that I get know.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I just read your post Stu ...

I agree, I could try bypassing the ignition switch ... I don't think I know how to do that ...

 

[Nereussailor]

Scott,
Check your connections where the ground connects to the motor, and where the positive connects to the starter. also, check your battery cables. slit the casing and look inside. I've had problems with corroded cables before. if the cables have any corrosion on the inside of the casing, it's time for new ones.

Dave

 

[DougM]

I don't recall reading as I scanned... How old are your batteries? I would suspect that if they are older than 4 years, its time to replace.

The other culprits could be a loose ground, or the famous Yanmar starter button issue. that can be fixed with a separate wire from the starter button to the solenoid.

 

[Witzend]

Check the solenoid on the starter. I have done this many times with a car.
Have someone push the start button and measure the voltage between the small wire and ground, it should read 10- 12v . If not, than the starter switch or associated wiring is bad. If you have 12 volts at the small wire, than check to see if you have 12V on the B terminal, if not than the battery or wiring to the started is suspect. If you have 12v at the large B terminal, but nothing on the S terminal than the solenoid is bad. If you really want to prove it's bad, than take a well insulated large flat blade screw driver and short the two large screws together. Ya got some paint on them so you might have to scrape a little. It's going to spark a freak out some of the purists on the thread, but no harm will be done as long as you don't contact any other metal with the screwdriver. If the engine cranks the contacts in the solenoid have gone bad or the plunger is sticking. Also try tapping on the solenoid while pressing the button. Sometimes it will release a sticky plunger in the solenoid.

The alarm is suppose to sound when the key is on and the motor is not running regardless of whether it is before you start the engine of after you shut it down. This is a safety feature. Helps you know your engine has died when it blowing like stink. On my 310 if the alarm doesn't sound than it is also an indication that the fuel pump is not going to get current when the engine is started. See, the low impedance fuel pump provides the ground for the alarm circuit. When the engine starts and the fuel pump is than provided the 12v than the alarm is silenced. Not sue if yours is wired that way.

 

[fnuttersny]

I agree, check starter. I took mine apart and found commutator (where carbon brushes make contact) to be contaminated with a layer of coarbon dust. RPM slow when energized on beach wich was part of my starting problem. Slow sarting RPM resulted in SEVERE battery drainage. Once contact area was polished to bright copper, starter just about jumped of the bench. Deisel now starts at the push of the button 2 to 3 seconds I couldn't believe it....cheers frank