Looking for a practical trailer sailer.

shemandr · Sep 17, 2019

I don't know the boat but the picture depicts a nice looking hull with a smooth bottom, clean interior, a presumably working engine and a decent trailer. For $2500 CAD it seems like a buyable boat. Seems like pretty good value to me. What could go wrong?

Daveinet · Sep 17, 2019

Your quote of me got mixed up. The RL is 3000 lbs including the trailer. The Santana 2023 is 2300 lbs including the trailer.

Dim Sum said:
I looked at a CS-22 with similar features. I had a hard time stepping the mast by myself. CS22 are are selling for $2000-$4500 with trailer locally. I noticed boats built locally are much cheaper than others.

The CS-22 is way different than an RL 24. It is 700 lbs heavier. The RL 24 PHRF is 174. PHRF for the CS-22 is 258, so the 2 boats are going to sail very differently.

I always step the mast by myself. The mast is up within 10 minutes of my arrival at the dock. Super easy to do, with not a ton of extra rigging. A couple of tricks make it easy. First is, I added an extra attachment point for the baby stays that are inline with the pivot point of the mast. They clip in place with carabiners. This stabilizes the mast. I have a custom made gin pole, with 3 cables, 1 clipped to the mast, and 2 to the same rings on my cabin top as the baby stays. I use the main sheet to raise the mast. I should also mention that my mast crutch that I use for transport is also used for a cradle when raising the mast. It has a V-roller on the top, so I just roll the mast back to the step. Made it from a PVC pipe. You just need to think through the design and build it ahead of time. Design it with features that stay permanently attached, so you don't have a lot of messing around when you get to the dock. Keep it simple. I watched Rube Goldberg take 2 hours to step a mast. I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

CharlieRN · Oct 7, 2019

I started a thread asking for advice about trailerable cruisers (Trailerable cruiser advice sought) but with a higher towing capacity (5,000 lbs) in mind. Still, some of the boats I've gotten comments on are light enough to tow with vehcile with a 3,500 lb towing capacity. You already mentioned the WWP 19 but there are others such as the Rhodes 22 (listed as 2,000 lbs) and the C22 (2,500 lbs) that have generated positive feedback on the thread.

With regard to the Potter, If you want to come a bit south of the border, there is a WWP 19 for sale in NH that appears to be in very good shape and there are several offered further south near the Chesapeake. A bit longer drive from Toronto but still doable in a day. All are listed on the PotterYatchers website.

Just out of curiosity, are there CA tax/duty implications associated with buying a boat in the US?

Benny17441 · Oct 7, 2019

Just a reminder that a boat's dry weight and its' actual towing weight can vary dramatically. add the trailer weight, outboard engine weight and fuel tank, Provisions and cooking hardware, filled fresh water tank, porta potty, ground tackle, Beer and personal items and that 2,500 lbs. boat may easily translate into a towing load of 3,800lbs.

DrJudyB · Oct 7, 2019

In addition to tow vehicle capacity, how important is the energy and time needed to rig? That's equally as important as any other considerations.

All things being equal (and they never are), the bigger, heavier boats take longer to raise the mast because you need more mechanical assistance to do that. All things being equal, the more complex boats take longer to rig (for example, lines run aft add time to rigging). Some boats take an hour to rig; others take 4 or 6 hours.

Are you going to keep the boat at home and trailer it for daysailing? Are you going to rig it every time you go sailing?
Are you going to store it with the mast up and on the trailer? Will you launch by crane or ramp?
Are you going to keep it in a slip or mooring in the water and occasionally trailer it a few times a year for a week or longer sailing trip?

DrJudyB · Oct 7, 2019

The WWP19 has generous headroom for two people seated, but not standing headroom. The only "standing" headroom you'll find on Potter 19 is standing in the companionway. If you get stuck on a P19 for a day or two in the rain, you're going to want to rig a rain fly over the cockpit.

I use a rain fly on my P19 and my F24 when it's raining, and at night to keep the cockpit dry from morning condensation.

Most of the older ones (Pre circa 2012?) have sitting room for two. Older ones are in your price range. Starting in 2012 or so, the builders removed a cabinet on the port side and increased the sitting room there for two (skinny) people. But this are going to be more expensive.

Daveinet · Oct 7, 2019

DrJudyB said:
...Some boats take an hour to rig; others take 4 or 6 hours.

I realize you have a decent level of experience when you make this statement, but as a skeptic, I wonder if the 4 to 6 hours is the result a lot of very inefficient processes. I had a guy tell me it takes 4 hours to step the mast on his Mac 26C. I have no idea what he could have been doing the other 3.5 hours. I contend most people waaay over complicate stuff. If you find you are wasting time doing a lot of adjusting, mark your turnbuckles, so you know how far the screw threads in. I put prebend in my mast by raising it with the forestay. I clip the jib halyard to the front of the boat and crank down on it with the winch. This bends the mast so I can clip the forestay in without loosening it. Unless you are racing, you don't have to have the rig absolutely perfect to sail the boat reasonably well. Using your previous settings will be just fine for cruising. Even running all my lines aft maybe adds a few minutes to the setup time. Leave as much rigging attached in the way the boat will be sailed. Use bungees to tie off the attached rigging so it does not chafe or move around during transport. But it doesn't hurt to leave that stuff attached. Even my main sail stays on the boom. It stores in the cabin with the lazy jacks attached. They are also held in place with bungees. Leave the bungees somewhat loose so you don't put creases in the sail.

DrJudyB · Oct 7, 2019

Daveinet said:
I realize you have a decent level of experience when you make this statement, but as a skeptic, I wonder if the 4 to 6 hours is the result a lot of very inefficient processes. I had a guy tell me it takes 4 hours to step the mast on his Mac 26C. I have no idea what he could have been doing the other 3.5 hours. I contend most people waaay over complicate stuff. If you find you are wasting time doing a lot of adjusting, mark your turnbuckles, so you know how far the screw threads in. I put prebend in my mast by raising it with the forestay. I clip the jib halyard to the front of the boat and crank down on it with the winch. This bends the mast so I can clip the forestay in without loosening it. Unless you are racing, you don't have to have the rig absolutely perfect to sail the boat reasonably well. Using your previous settings will be just fine for cruising. Even running all my lines aft maybe adds a few minutes to the setup time. Leave as much rigging attached in the way the boat will be sailed. Use bungees to tie off the attached rigging so it does not chafe or move around during transport. But it doesn't hurt to leave that stuff attached. Even my main sail stays on the boom. It stores in the cabin with the lazy jacks attached. They are also held in place with bungees. Leave the bungees somewhat loose so you don't put c

It goes without saying that having an efficient process is important. But some boats take too long to rig for just a daysail.

DrJudyB · Oct 7, 2019

Dim Sum said:
I want to use this sailboat as a camper on water. I will be trailering it everywhere. No slip or mooring it for more than a day to resupply. There are too many lakes, rivers and canals to name during summer months where I live but will rotate between The Keys and SoCa during winter months. I seen an older gent set up the WWP 19 without any aid or devise and displacement is around 1200 lbs is awesome.

Sorry to disappoint you, but there isn’t a P19 around that actually weighs 1200 pounds. Most production boats weigh a lot more than the manufacturers claim in their brochures. My first P19 was a light one compared to others - and it weighed 2450 with the trailer, mast, a nice assortment of sails, and loaded with mi umal creature comforts.

Keep in mind that the 3500 capacity of your vehicle is for a lightly loaded vehicle, with only the driver and one suitcase. Every pound you add to the vehicle payload (passenger, Outboard, cooler in the trunk, etc) reduces the towing capacity.

walt · Oct 11, 2019

A question for Dr Judy or anyone else. On my Mac 26S, the spreaders are raked back and when I raise or lower the mast, I never have to deal with either the lower or upper side stays. Just raise the mast and connect the forestay.

But I have noticed that on other trailerables, some people have to disconnect / connect one set of the side stays in addition to the forestay.

I think (but could be wrong) that if the spreaders are not swept back, that is when when you have to mess with them each time you set the mast up.

Its probably another tradeoff. The swept back speader touches the main when the sail is let way out. But a little more complexity for mast raising and setup if the spreaders are more straight side to side. Is this correct.. or wrong?

Some other observations for trailering.

If you have a furler and keep the foresail wrapped on the furler all the time even when trailering (which saves setup time and I do this), the weight of the furler and sail matters somewhat when raising the mast. A fractional rig will have a lighter furler/ sail simply because it will be shorter length.

Most ramps are about 10 to 12 percent slope. At 10 percent, this means that for each inch higher the boat sits on the trailer, the trailer tires have to go 10 inches further down the ramp. The lower the a boat sits on the trailer, the shorter the ramp you need. The ramp lenght adds up quickly for a boat sitting higher on the trailer. Another example for the 10 percent ramp. If the boat sits up 1.5 feet on the the trailer compared to another boat, the higher boat would need to go say 15 feet farther down the ramp. Something to consider if you are trailering to launch ramps that you dont know much about. And if the boat sits low enough on the trailer, you wont even need a trailer tongue extension. This can also save a bunch of time in the setup process.

FYI, here is my other trailerable from this summer..

Hondo76251 · Oct 11, 2019

If you want to use your boat like a camper and are concerned about weight it's hard to beat a Macgregor 26 "classic" I absolutely love my 26D and I think most of the hate volleyed at them is because of the later "motor sailor" version (but many people have had a lot of enjoyment with them too)
Being about as land locked as one can be, I have to have a trailer boat. I need a fair bit of space for kids and gear. I need a shallow draft and a boat that I can beach. I need to be able to single hand easily. Weight has never been a factor for me but the 18" draft on the mac sure is! The water ballast is a bit more tender feeling in the middle but firms up quickly with a bit of heel. This can be disconcerting for those who want to sail flat and might be used to something like a Catalina but I can assure you that all the hubbub about not sailing a mac in over 15kts of wind is malarkey. I live in WY, if I had to wait till winds were going to stay below 15 I'd never get to sail. I have an extra reef pt in the main and an upgraded rudder. I've got a hank on working jib and I've only had to take it down once to make it home and that was in gusts over 35. I have sailed for about 8 years with this boat and only a trolling motor and I generally only use it to back away from the dock.
Price points are usually reasonable for the older mac's as well. I got mine, ready to sail, jib, Genoa, main, and a few accessories (no motor) for 3k in texas.
Anyway, that's just my $0.02 on the deal, dont count out the water ballast boats if you need weight savings...

Here's us on the lake last year...

Hondo76251 · Oct 11, 2019

walt said:
A question for Dr Judy or anyone else. On my Mac 26S...

They are a fractional rig so the backstay doesn't support all the force of the mast. The side and forstays are more like a tripod for lack of better description...

bmorr · Oct 11, 2019

Have you considered a water ballast boat? I am on my second. The first a 26C mac was very easy to tow, I towed it from Colorado to Calif. a couple of times and various trips to mountain lakes with a v6 vehicle. My present water ballast is a Hunter 26, great boat but heavier and more time to set up but what a great interior. and much faster.

DrJudyB · Oct 11, 2019

walt said:
A question for Dr Judy or anyone else. On my Mac 26S, the spreaders are raked back and when I raise or lower the mast, I never have to deal with either the lower or upper side stays. Just raise the mast and connect the forestay.

But I have noticed that on other trailerables, some people have to disconnect / connect one set of the side stays in addition to the forestay.

I think (but could be wrong) that if the spreaders are not swept back, that is when when you have to mess with them each time you set the mast up.

Walt has the right idea, but there’s more to add to what he said. He should add add perpendicular spreaders. .
(square to centerline, without any sweep), bit without any forward lower side shrouds

For example: a Catalina 22 has
non-swept spreaders,
with a cap side shroud which goes to a chain plate that’s abreast of the mast foot,
a forward lower side shroud that goes to a chainplate forward and to the side of the mast foot,
An aft lower side shroud going to a chainplate aft and to the side of the mast foot
A forestay stay
and a backstay.

To lower the mast towards the stern, you would need to disconnect the forward lower side shrouds as well as the forestay.

Judy B

DrJudyB · Oct 13, 2019

Dim Sum said:
I want to use this sailboat as a camper on water. I will be trailering it everywhere. No slip or mooring it for more than a day to resupply. ... <snipped>

I use a hammock rain fly as a cockpit cover/ boom tent. I put it over the boom. It fits into a stuff sack that's about 12' x 6" and weighs less than 2 pounds. it takes less than five minutes to set up and even less to take down. It's adjustable, using the topping lift. With boom up higher, it lets the breeze in on a hot, sunny day. With the boom lowered, the fly keeps wind driven rain out. There are "door flaps" on the front and back ends, that can be closed or open for additional shade, wind and rain protection.

Eno Housefly Rain Tarp

Or you can use a $15 poly tarp, but that's much bulkier and doesn't dry as fast.