My wife and I would like to charter a boat for between 3-12 months to test our fortitude for a longer RTW cruise. If anyone has knowledge about longer term charters, please let me know. We are ready to go anytime. Regards, Tracy tracyarianne@yahoo.com
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The GIGO principle reigns once again!
Tracy, The internet has often been compared to a gigantic computer. If so, asking a question on an internet bulletin board is similar to trying to run a sophisticated program on a computer that requires adequate input in order to produce a satisfactory answer. This is the basis for the often mentioned GIGO (Garbage In Garbage Out) principle. The question you are asking here is too little defined (i.e. provides too little information) to elicit a useful answer. Perhaps you can tell us a bit more about the type of vessel you are looking for (size, rig, weight, equipment); the kind of cruising you have in mind (destinations, routing and scheduling) as well as the type of charter (bareboat or captained) and your own current level of experience. Right off the bat I can tell you that these longterm charters tend to be a can of worms with regard to responsibilities, liabilities, insurability and expectations on both sides. Then there is the zillion dollar question whether it all makes economic sense or not. As already mentioned by the first responder (Whow, I just saw that his post is no longer there; Phil must have deleted his post because he was SHOUTING or because it was commercial!?) perhaps you can save money by buying and selling a suitable used vessel. At any rate, I think that there are quite a few people here on this board who can give you some useful advice, if only they knew better what it is that you are looking for. See yah out there some day! Flying Dutchman
Tracy, The internet has often been compared to a gigantic computer. If so, asking a question on an internet bulletin board is similar to trying to run a sophisticated program on a computer that requires adequate input in order to produce a satisfactory answer. This is the basis for the often mentioned GIGO (Garbage In Garbage Out) principle. The question you are asking here is too little defined (i.e. provides too little information) to elicit a useful answer. Perhaps you can tell us a bit more about the type of vessel you are looking for (size, rig, weight, equipment); the kind of cruising you have in mind (destinations, routing and scheduling) as well as the type of charter (bareboat or captained) and your own current level of experience. Right off the bat I can tell you that these longterm charters tend to be a can of worms with regard to responsibilities, liabilities, insurability and expectations on both sides. Then there is the zillion dollar question whether it all makes economic sense or not. As already mentioned by the first responder (Whow, I just saw that his post is no longer there; Phil must have deleted his post because he was SHOUTING or because it was commercial!?) perhaps you can save money by buying and selling a suitable used vessel. At any rate, I think that there are quite a few people here on this board who can give you some useful advice, if only they knew better what it is that you are looking for. See yah out there some day! Flying Dutchman
Long Term Charter
Tracy My family and I briefly considered taking a 6-12 month sabbatical and sailing the Carribean. Recognizing the difficulties of chartering a boat for that length of time from an individual (all the contract related stuff that the previous respondent refers to) and the expense of a long term charter through a more established charter company, we considered buying a used boat and then selling her after the sail. One of the more intriguing alternatives, however, was the possibility of buying a used boat out of one of the major charter fleets, using it for 6 months or a year, and then putting her back in a charter fleet until you could sell her. Charter fleet boats, although heavily used by sometimes questionable sailors, are usually professionally maintained and if new enough should be OK for a 6 to 12 month cruise as long as you are not crossing oceans. Charter boats are also not necessarily fitted out with storage space for long term cruising, but with three kids we would have appreciated the multiple staterooms typical of charter boats. Finally, unless you wanted to repaint the boat prior to your cruise, you would have to live with the Moorings or Sunsail logos on your cruising boat. But, like I said, the economics of that approach looked appealing. Let us know what you decide to do. There are a number of us who would appreciate you sharing what you learn in this endeavour.
Tracy My family and I briefly considered taking a 6-12 month sabbatical and sailing the Carribean. Recognizing the difficulties of chartering a boat for that length of time from an individual (all the contract related stuff that the previous respondent refers to) and the expense of a long term charter through a more established charter company, we considered buying a used boat and then selling her after the sail. One of the more intriguing alternatives, however, was the possibility of buying a used boat out of one of the major charter fleets, using it for 6 months or a year, and then putting her back in a charter fleet until you could sell her. Charter fleet boats, although heavily used by sometimes questionable sailors, are usually professionally maintained and if new enough should be OK for a 6 to 12 month cruise as long as you are not crossing oceans. Charter boats are also not necessarily fitted out with storage space for long term cruising, but with three kids we would have appreciated the multiple staterooms typical of charter boats. Finally, unless you wanted to repaint the boat prior to your cruise, you would have to live with the Moorings or Sunsail logos on your cruising boat. But, like I said, the economics of that approach looked appealing. Let us know what you decide to do. There are a number of us who would appreciate you sharing what you learn in this endeavour.
To the flying dutchman
I was eliminated by Mr Herring for saying something offline and am using my mates forumn for useful answers. You had quite an intelligant report and your advice is great and I am checking things out. I now live on a 49ft motoryacht and still own the Hunter 450 which we are selling and this is a great thing for me and the interested people.When they mentioned a 450 it is understood that they know what they want as have other people who are thinking of buying it but it is to costly. Do you know if a person like me can lease a boat legally mcbubba720@aol.com
I was eliminated by Mr Herring for saying something offline and am using my mates forumn for useful answers. You had quite an intelligant report and your advice is great and I am checking things out. I now live on a 49ft motoryacht and still own the Hunter 450 which we are selling and this is a great thing for me and the interested people.When they mentioned a 450 it is understood that they know what they want as have other people who are thinking of buying it but it is to costly. Do you know if a person like me can lease a boat legally mcbubba720@aol.com
Correction
Mr. McBubba was barred for posting some inapproriate things _online_ in these forums. What he says offline is not our concern. ph.
Mr. McBubba was barred for posting some inapproriate things _online_ in these forums. What he says offline is not our concern. ph.
Indeed more info would be useful...so here goes
Thank you for your comments on finding a boat for long-term chartering. Let me fill in the details a bit as has been suggested. We've been looking for a 40-50 foot, cutter rigged, steel-hulled, center-cockpit boat with a nice aft cabin with a comfortable bed so we don't have to crawl over each other getting in and out. My wife is a dive instructor so a walk-thru transom that allows easy access is also a priority. After talking with many open ocean cruisers, we have opted to not go with an in-mast furling system for the main. Minimum fresh water tank capacity of 200 gallons, and a suitably large fuel tank to go with the larger motor required with a steel hull. I'm not too big on electronic gizmos GPS computer mapping and all, I am going to be proficent at celest. nav., rolling deck and all! (must repeat 10 times daily...I am going to be prof...) and adhere to the less electronics on board, the longer and hassel-free cruise will I enjoy philosophy. I've been sailing since a child but only since 1997 have I set my sights on sailing ATW. At that point, I went through ASA courses with Capt. Pat Nolan down in the BVI over a two year period doing a series of training-charters on cruising boats (38 and 42 footers). Since then, I've sailed down in Australia a couple of times on the same size boats and now here in The Netherlands have been sailing a couple times a month on a small day-sailer. Arianne has sailed once with me down in the BVI last spring on a 40ft CC out of Sunsail (we had a great time) and since we haven't found the right boat, we both thought it would be prudent to see if we could charter for a longer period as a test run to make sure we are going to have as much fun as we think we are going to have. The boat we are looking to charter does not have to have all the qualities as the boat we are looking to buy. We would like to spend the time aboard sailing in the Caribbean but are flexible as to sailing area. As someone mentioned, I think it may be easier to buy a cheap and cheerful boat down in the Caribbean and sell it back a bit cheaper when we are done than go through all the hoops and hurdles that I am running into with this proposal. Thanks again for the comments and look forward to hearing more. I will let you know what we decide in the end. If not the boat ATW, then maybe on our BMW 1100GS motorcycles...?? Cheers, Tracy tracyarianne@yahoo.com
Thank you for your comments on finding a boat for long-term chartering. Let me fill in the details a bit as has been suggested. We've been looking for a 40-50 foot, cutter rigged, steel-hulled, center-cockpit boat with a nice aft cabin with a comfortable bed so we don't have to crawl over each other getting in and out. My wife is a dive instructor so a walk-thru transom that allows easy access is also a priority. After talking with many open ocean cruisers, we have opted to not go with an in-mast furling system for the main. Minimum fresh water tank capacity of 200 gallons, and a suitably large fuel tank to go with the larger motor required with a steel hull. I'm not too big on electronic gizmos GPS computer mapping and all, I am going to be proficent at celest. nav., rolling deck and all! (must repeat 10 times daily...I am going to be prof...) and adhere to the less electronics on board, the longer and hassel-free cruise will I enjoy philosophy. I've been sailing since a child but only since 1997 have I set my sights on sailing ATW. At that point, I went through ASA courses with Capt. Pat Nolan down in the BVI over a two year period doing a series of training-charters on cruising boats (38 and 42 footers). Since then, I've sailed down in Australia a couple of times on the same size boats and now here in The Netherlands have been sailing a couple times a month on a small day-sailer. Arianne has sailed once with me down in the BVI last spring on a 40ft CC out of Sunsail (we had a great time) and since we haven't found the right boat, we both thought it would be prudent to see if we could charter for a longer period as a test run to make sure we are going to have as much fun as we think we are going to have. The boat we are looking to charter does not have to have all the qualities as the boat we are looking to buy. We would like to spend the time aboard sailing in the Caribbean but are flexible as to sailing area. As someone mentioned, I think it may be easier to buy a cheap and cheerful boat down in the Caribbean and sell it back a bit cheaper when we are done than go through all the hoops and hurdles that I am running into with this proposal. Thanks again for the comments and look forward to hearing more. I will let you know what we decide in the end. If not the boat ATW, then maybe on our BMW 1100GS motorcycles...?? Cheers, Tracy tracyarianne@yahoo.com
Tracy, IMHO it remains a pretty tough proposition!
At first sight, charter a 40-45 ft vessel for 6 months in order to get a better taste of the cruising life style sounds like a reasonable idea. So, why not simply go back to Sunsail and charter one of their vessels for that length of time? I am sure you have already considered and rejected that approach, since: (a) the cost would be horrendous (yes, they should give you a discount but with an assumed 50 % occupancy rate they have little incentive to give you a bigger discount than that); (b) they still would not just let you cruise anywhere you wanted to go (not even with a captained charter) and might, in fact, not even let you sail at night (all because of their insurance); and (c) it is doubtful they could find you a steel boat (why do you want one anyhow? see my postscriptum) OK, so you are looking to charter from a private sailor..... Unfortunately, half the sailors on this board would probably rather rent out their SO than their beloved vessel. However, it so happens you remember the movie "Indecent Proposal" and know that he right amount of money will always do "the trick"!nSo what is the magic $$ number? Well, let's assume the bluewater ready vessel you want to charter is worth a modest US $ 150,000; all owed to the bank at 8 % interest and fully written of in 20 years. Moreover, the skipper takes real good care of his vessel (after all, it needs to remain a desirable and safe charter vessel) and spends US $ 15,000 every year on repairs, maintenance and upgrades plus pays US $ 2,000 in bluewater insurance. So, unless he or she is running a charity you will have to cough up approx. US $ 20,000 just to cover his costs. Double that to US $ 40,000 to make room for some profit and leave a buffer to replace a possibly screwed-up engine and other nightmares and you are probably getting his attention, i.e. at approx. US $ 1,500 per week. Starts sounding a lot like a Sunsail deal, right? However, in theory you now have the advantage that you can go anywhere you want and even sail at night! So, he informs his insurance that Mr. Tracy will be skippering his vessel for the next 6 months and guess what happens next? Right! You will have to find your own insurance (which will be next to impossible unless you do have a lot of experience and a qualified second person on board). Alternatively, you will need to provide a US $ 150,000 bank guarantee of sorts. Maybe, he'll settle for your house, if you happen to own one. At this point it probably becomes easier to buy your own vessel than to trade your home for someone else's boat. As you can see, it gets pretty complicated in a hurry. Nonetheless it is not impossible. However, one thing is sure: it will never be cheap or necessarily make a lot of sense..... Have fun! Flying Dutchman PS (true story) Hanging over the seawall in a little Dutch fishing harbor I once met an old sailor who slowly sucked on his long-stemmed pipe and remarked: "I remember the times that boats were made of wood and men were made of steel. Now boats are made of steel, and ....". He did not finish his sentence but threw a long and disapproving glance at "Rivendel I", our Pacemaker houseboat, neatly tied up to that same seawall. I did not have the heart to ask him if he had ever heard of fiberglass..... HM
At first sight, charter a 40-45 ft vessel for 6 months in order to get a better taste of the cruising life style sounds like a reasonable idea. So, why not simply go back to Sunsail and charter one of their vessels for that length of time? I am sure you have already considered and rejected that approach, since: (a) the cost would be horrendous (yes, they should give you a discount but with an assumed 50 % occupancy rate they have little incentive to give you a bigger discount than that); (b) they still would not just let you cruise anywhere you wanted to go (not even with a captained charter) and might, in fact, not even let you sail at night (all because of their insurance); and (c) it is doubtful they could find you a steel boat (why do you want one anyhow? see my postscriptum) OK, so you are looking to charter from a private sailor..... Unfortunately, half the sailors on this board would probably rather rent out their SO than their beloved vessel. However, it so happens you remember the movie "Indecent Proposal" and know that he right amount of money will always do "the trick"!nSo what is the magic $$ number? Well, let's assume the bluewater ready vessel you want to charter is worth a modest US $ 150,000; all owed to the bank at 8 % interest and fully written of in 20 years. Moreover, the skipper takes real good care of his vessel (after all, it needs to remain a desirable and safe charter vessel) and spends US $ 15,000 every year on repairs, maintenance and upgrades plus pays US $ 2,000 in bluewater insurance. So, unless he or she is running a charity you will have to cough up approx. US $ 20,000 just to cover his costs. Double that to US $ 40,000 to make room for some profit and leave a buffer to replace a possibly screwed-up engine and other nightmares and you are probably getting his attention, i.e. at approx. US $ 1,500 per week. Starts sounding a lot like a Sunsail deal, right? However, in theory you now have the advantage that you can go anywhere you want and even sail at night! So, he informs his insurance that Mr. Tracy will be skippering his vessel for the next 6 months and guess what happens next? Right! You will have to find your own insurance (which will be next to impossible unless you do have a lot of experience and a qualified second person on board). Alternatively, you will need to provide a US $ 150,000 bank guarantee of sorts. Maybe, he'll settle for your house, if you happen to own one. At this point it probably becomes easier to buy your own vessel than to trade your home for someone else's boat. As you can see, it gets pretty complicated in a hurry. Nonetheless it is not impossible. However, one thing is sure: it will never be cheap or necessarily make a lot of sense..... Have fun! Flying Dutchman PS (true story) Hanging over the seawall in a little Dutch fishing harbor I once met an old sailor who slowly sucked on his long-stemmed pipe and remarked: "I remember the times that boats were made of wood and men were made of steel. Now boats are made of steel, and ....". He did not finish his sentence but threw a long and disapproving glance at "Rivendel I", our Pacemaker houseboat, neatly tied up to that same seawall. I did not have the heart to ask him if he had ever heard of fiberglass..... HM
Have you ever seen the Princess Bride?
Your two responses remind me of Vizzini. A truly dizzying intellect. Why did you ask for more information? Reading through your second post, I don't find anything you said that was derived from any new information I provided (length? "sailboat 45" in the header). Still looking for some useful information regarding a longer term charter. Cheers, Tracy
Your two responses remind me of Vizzini. A truly dizzying intellect. Why did you ask for more information? Reading through your second post, I don't find anything you said that was derived from any new information I provided (length? "sailboat 45" in the header). Still looking for some useful information regarding a longer term charter. Cheers, Tracy
Why I asked for information....(response to Tracy)
I am sorry if I gave you the impression that I ignored the information you sent. First of all, the main reason I asked for more information is that I hoped someone on this board with far broader charter operation experience than me might be tempted to take the bait, thus relieving me of the duty to write a discouraging answer. Secondly, I carefully studied the information you DID provide in the hope that I was either going to learn that: (a) you were after a relatively small and inexpensive type of vessel: (b) you had lots of offshore experience; (c) money was no objective; and/or (d) you had special mechanical or electrical skills which might give you additional bargaining power with a skipper who needed some work done. Any of the above points could have put your quest over the top. Alas, I found none of these redeeming factors which would have allowed me to be more encouraging. Please never give up on your dream, though, just fine tune your plans a bit and keep trying. Sucess! Flying Dutchman
I am sorry if I gave you the impression that I ignored the information you sent. First of all, the main reason I asked for more information is that I hoped someone on this board with far broader charter operation experience than me might be tempted to take the bait, thus relieving me of the duty to write a discouraging answer. Secondly, I carefully studied the information you DID provide in the hope that I was either going to learn that: (a) you were after a relatively small and inexpensive type of vessel: (b) you had lots of offshore experience; (c) money was no objective; and/or (d) you had special mechanical or electrical skills which might give you additional bargaining power with a skipper who needed some work done. Any of the above points could have put your quest over the top. Alas, I found none of these redeeming factors which would have allowed me to be more encouraging. Please never give up on your dream, though, just fine tune your plans a bit and keep trying. Sucess! Flying Dutchman
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