Looking at several boats tomorrow

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Mar 28, 2007
211
Hunter 33' Cherubini Biloxi Back Bay,MS
Looking at several boats tomorrow, one in particular we are interested in the boat dealer does not know when it was last painted or out of the water and seems to not be able to get a hold of the owner. This may be a stupid question but if I run my hands along the sides of the boat as deep underwater as I can while on the dock would I be able to tell anything,feel anything?
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,688
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
bottom condition

You won't be able to tell anything that way. Realize that if you make an acceptable offer on this boat subject to a survey, you will be hauling the boat at that point to have it thoroughly inspected which can only be done out of the water. Alternatively, if you decide you are serious about this boat but don't want to contract for a survey, tell the broker your offer (and subsequent survey) is contingent upon a short-haul to do your own visual inspection.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Seadance, do you trust the broker? an absentee

seller is sometimes a ploy for any number of selling games. If the boat seems pleasing otherwise follow Don's advise and make a low offer subject to some negotiation. Plastic boats tolerate more neglect than wooden boats. They tend to be like farm girls , they clean up real nice. ;)
 

BobW

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Jul 21, 2005
456
Hunter 31 San Pedro, Ca
The biggest 'bottom' problem is blisters...

and, as Don said, you won't be able to judge whether the boat has a blister problem without hauling it. Along with looking for blisters, the surveyor will be checking the hull for previous damage (most boats have been grounded), how well the keel is attached (very important, for obvious reasons!), the condition of the thru-hulls, bottom paint, prop shaft and cutless bearing, and the rudder. Very important to haul the boat and have a professional examine it. Blisters occur (mostly on boats built between 1975 and 1995) because of many different manufacturing problems - the most common: the fiberglass is put up in layers, and if the liquid resin doesn't flow properly, there are voids between the layers - compounded by the unfortunate fact that the outer layer of gel-coat isn't completely waterproof. It seems that if there are voids inside the fiberglass, water will penetrate to them and react with the acid left over from the resin, causing pressure that pushes the gel-coat outwards. Most blisters are in the outer layers next to the gel-coat - deeper blisters are a much more serious problem and you should stay away from any boat that has deep blisters. Interestingly, it isn't just 'cheap' boats that developed blister problems - plenty of high-end boats also came down with blister problems. Newer boats are usually built using various techniques that prevent blisters, such as 'vacuum-bagging' in which the mold for the hull (with the glass mat in place) is inserted in a GREAT BIG plastic bag and all the air is sucked out, then the resin is introduced and literally sucked into the glass mat. Very effective! Now, here's the wierd part: a boat that 'has blisters' isn't necessarily a bad buy. Blisters by themselves have never sunk a boat, and in most cases will never be a serious problem, or require a huge fix job. (the way to 'cure' blisters is to pull the boat and literally PEEL the gel-coat and outer layer of fiberglass off the hull. Then you put the boat where it will be warm - like in a tent- and blow hot, dry air on it for about 6 months. After the hull is thoroughly dry, you put the outer coat back on, usually with some expensive (and VERY waterproof) epoxy. Cost for a 30' boat is probably about $10,000. So please do yourself a favor: don't buy ANY boat without a professional survey. BE THERE, even if the surveyor won't let you follow him/her around. At least you can discuss the findings with him/her and learn a lot. And if the survey says ANYTHING about blisters, do 2 things: investigate further to see if they are bad enough to require the 'big fix', and, if you decide to buy the boat, USE the blisters to get the price down...... very few people understand blisters, and most will freak out at the mention of the word. ;D Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8 p.s.... I've always wondered just HOW LONG a fiberglass boat hull will REALLY last.... the oldest fiberglass boats were built in the '50s, so they are about 50 years old. Will they fall apart at 75 years? 50 years? Also, the reason why blister problems started in the mid-70s - like so many other problems - is the Arab oil embargo. The price of the resin shot up, and boat makers, who previously made boats with heavy, thick, solid hulls started cutting down on how much resin they used. One last thought: this is my understanding of blisters... you'll probably hear other explanations, because it isn't a particularly clear, concise subject.
 
R

Rich

Keels are a whole 'nother story

Seadance, BobW gave a good overview of the blister issue. Keels get another whole book on their problems. I don't have the knowledge to go into that in detail, but the big picture is that you've got two things to look at: is the keel made of something other than lead (iron, etc) which isn't properly sealed? And, is there seepage at the place where the keel meets the hull? That last is the biggest issue, because it could indicate water damage in the inside working its way out. If the keel is anything other than clean and rust-free best to do some further reading on keels...
 

BarryL

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May 21, 2004
1,116
Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409 Mt. Sinai, NY
WARNING WARNING WARNING

Hello, First off, welcome back!!! I'm glad some of the 'not so friendly' posters have not driven you off. Second, and the reason for my posting. Descriptions like 'can't get a hold of the owner' and 'doesn't know when it was painted' should set off some alarm bells in your head. In my dealings with boat brokers I have learned that there are two basic types of brokers - the good ones that care, are knowledgable about the boats they represent, want to do a good job, etc., and the rest of the brokers. A broker that can't get in touch with the owner, etc. is not a good sign. I'm not suggesting that you not look at the boat, but merely warning you that the boat is likely to be floating piece of junk, or the broker may not be able to locate the boat, or that the boat may otherwise not meet your your expectations. Finally, good luck in your search. Barry
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Seadance, Just as you are wise to question the

motives of a broker you are also wise to consider the wide range of advise that is offered here. There are horror stories of bad deals but like most horror stories they are news and much more the exception than the rule. A man with a new boat will agonize over every little scratch, scrape, mark and pock mark that he discovers on his boat. Just as a new car owner laments the fist parking lot marks on his car, but after ten years they don't seem to be so improtant anymore. My boat is 38 or 39 years old now and there is very little that fifty cents worth of paint won't fix. Determine what is important and what is cosmetic. My feeling about blisters falls on the side of scrape the tops off and paint them and then go sailing. some things are worth fixing and some can be ignored without loss.
 
S

SEADANCE

re: boat hunting

Hi!:) The Endeavor Bob mentioned was the one we were looking at but the boat owner keeps having problems with heavy leakage around the portlights in the galley and vberth and he has fixed it several times according to that dealer. Its too bad because it looks like a nice boat. I found two surveyors that are cheap and can come down tomorrow if we like any of the boats and I have called for a lift out of the water availability too. I did call that one boat dealer guy and pretty much told him I did not buy the "owner is hard to get line" and to find out a little more information about the boat, when the hull was last painted when it was out of the water last, what problems it has ever had ,when the survey was done last and I wanted to see a papertrail of history on the boat before I got there tomorrow morning. This time I will not be shy to look behind every corner,cushion, drawer, blanket, compartment, run the water, press lots of buttons, sails fit the boat, bilge pump, engine and battery questions... but I'll ask permission of course first. ;) I do have ,one advantage today.. it rained heavy in that area and I will be able to look for any leakage inside. I also talked it out of the dealer that the boat owner is desperate to sell, so I am pushing for an Respectable insane offer amount. Wish me luck. I am so excited about going boat hunting!
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Use not only your eyes, use also your nose

if it stinks try to find out why. Leaking ports can be corrected if you are willing to remove them entirely and rebed them in clean openings. Caulk smeared in wide bands means the problems wouldn't go away. Look for signs of vermin both, insects and animals. Remember the problems with a boat aren't yours until you buy it. Have fun and good luck.
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,688
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
Seadance

one other point related to your last comment - not all surveyors are created equal. At this time of year sespecially, the good ones are extremely busy. Although I wouldn't be too paranoid with a surveyor who is free on a days notice, I would be suspect of their expertise and be on-hand for his survey
 
Jun 2, 2004
3,648
Hunter 23.5 Fort Walton Yacht Club, Florida
Are You Working on Your Side?

Having one work for you can help big time. Some of those guys are as slimey as the bottoms of the boats they are selling.
 
May 11, 2005
3,431
Seidelman S37 Slidell, La.
Seadance

Glad you came back to us. Good advice given here. I am currently dealing with a broker in the sale of my S2. This guy is on top of everything, and I think he will do me a good job. From my experience with this guy, any broker who doesn't appear to be totally up front about everything, I would just say no thanks and walk away. I looked at a BUNCH of boats on the gulf coast, and I would certainly tell you to get a survey. Also, are lots of boats for sale, and not a lot seems to be selling, so don't make any high offers. I think maybe because marina space is now at a premium in our area. Whatever the reason, negotiate, and then negotiate some more. And before you sign anything, get a survey. There is a surveyor in your area named Creekmore. Does a lot of rigging out of new boats, and used to build boats. I have never met him, but have heard a lot about him, and he is highly respected in the area.
 
May 11, 2005
3,431
Seidelman S37 Slidell, La.
I just love

I love Ross's line. The problems with a boat are not yours, until you buy it.
 
Feb 25, 2007
191
- - Sandusky, Ohio
Welcome back

Might I suggest that you guard against impulse buying. The expression "don't buy a pig in a poke" comes to mind. Remember, there are a lot more boats for sale than there are buyers to buy them. That gives you as a buyer significant leverage. I wish you good luck and fair winds.
 
Feb 17, 2006
5,274
Lancer 27PS MCB Camp Pendleton KF6BL
Great advise Seadance...

But the purchase ain't over till the fat lady sings!. That is, you must SEA TRIAL the boat. So look, if you like, survey, after survey, sea trial, then make your offer. Two-thirds the asking price, but don't be afraid to give a lower price if you know the boat has been on the market for some time. But most of all, if something inside tells you to say "no thanks' walk away, then do so and don't look back.
 
P

Pete

Seadance

Ask the broker how is he going to be able to present an offer if he can't get a hold of the owner ? Stick to your guns with this broker and any other broker who comes up with more excuses then answers ! There is always a better bargain just around the corner, don't be afraid to walk away. Patience and you will be rewarded with a good purchase. However there is another side to this equation and that is you must present yourself as a valid "buyer" and not a "dreamer". A phone call about a boat doesn't mean much to a broker with out an actual visit to inspect the boat, demanding to see a paper trial of the boats history before you get there might be just a little over the top, reverse the situation and what would do ? Once you are there in person you hold all the cards ! Most all brokers will work with a "buyer", develop a business relationship and you will find buying a boat much more pleasant! Good Luck with your boat hunting !
 
C

Cap'n Ron

Seen it a thousand times, Don't fall in love!

This is a huge subject but a few details will help: 1) Remember the broker is in this to make a commission. In itself is not a negative, but he has a 'conflict of interest' in some of what your surveyor's findings are; there are always some, and they normally re-negotiate the price. BTW many surveyors refer to brokers as "Car salesmen with boatshoes" a joke. 2) Do NOT fall in love until after your survey, don't be in a hurry, if anyone attempts to rush you, or tell you to 'paint the bottom' change the zincs etc "while its out" then sloooooow down or find another yacht. 3) Owners do get lost for all sorts of unknown reasons, like everyone else, they have things going on with family and business. If they know something negative however, that may keep them away. 4)It looks like you are from the gulf-coast, be especially careful and if Katrina and sinkings do not ring a bell it should; lotta yachts have been dressed up and sold as "non-sinkers". 5) Do NOT hire the cheapest surveyor and most available one, over ten bucks a foot, and less than sixteen, this is not an aircraft carrier nor te Queen Mary either. 6) Never take a surveyor that is recommended by a broker, insurance broker is okay, or the SAMS or NAMS websites. There are some very talented non-accredited surveyor (old-school) guys, but for insurance or a loan the institutions really want a SAMS or NAMS guy; neither is better, but asking around is a good way to find one. 7) there is alot more...BUT kick a lotta tires before hiring your surveyor.
 
Dec 9, 2005
164
Kirie Elite 37 Pascagoula, Mississippi
The name of the surveyor Nice & Easy mentioned...

is Lee Creekmore. Residing in Mobile, Alabama, Lee is the most respected sailboat surveyor in the area. Three years ago Lee surveyed my boat and did a very thorough job. While I don't have his phone number handy, you can call number assistance and get it. Lee has designed and built many successful sailboats, while consistently winning numerous races in the Mobile Bay area. Seadance....before you buy you should consider the sailboat in the Pascagoula Inner Harbor....the owner rarely used it. Dick Dixon s/v CD EXPRESS
 
Jun 12, 2004
1,181
Allied Mistress 39 Ketch Kemah,Tx.
Best way to get bit is.....

The best way to get bit is to look for a super deal. Thats not to say they dont happen, but thay are rare. After Katrina, the boats i saw at the auction sites and storage areas were pretty much a waste of time. I dont recall you specifying how much money you want to spend and what size boat you are looking for. If you intend to get insurance, better find out in advance what the requirements are for the surveyors credentials. After katrina, many boat bums I knew from various marinas in the Slidell to Biloxi area started calling themselves surveyors. Many were drunks and hardcore unemployable. The way to dodge them is to ask to "prove" they are members of SAMS or NAMS. If they are not, your insurance company might not honor their survey. Buying a boat is fun, exhilerating and scarey as hell. I have been fortunate in that my experiences with brokers have always been very positive. One of the most honorable brokers in your area is Lonnie, the owner of Gulf Coast Yacht Brokerage or something like that. He is/was in Long Beach. I have bought and sold several boats through him. Great guy. Anywaqy, I wish you luck. Tony B
 

higgs

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Aug 24, 2005
3,736
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
Is my memory failing

Seadance Was not your original post about an Irwin 34? what happened to that boat? wecome back.
 
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