Looking at a (new to me) boat on Saturday...
- Thread starter Brian D
- Start date
- Status
new boat
also, am i missing something? is it common practice out there to pay a surveyor and then hold him free from negligence no matter what it costs? a while ago there was a thread that claimed surveyors don't do engines. mine found a marginal - not dead - alternator, a non-conforming lid for my propane tank, some deck hardware needing rebedding, an erratic vhf, and a number of other things. obviously he looked hard. the two years since, nothing he missed has gone wrong. did i waste my money?
also, am i missing something? is it common practice out there to pay a surveyor and then hold him free from negligence no matter what it costs? a while ago there was a thread that claimed surveyors don't do engines. mine found a marginal - not dead - alternator, a non-conforming lid for my propane tank, some deck hardware needing rebedding, an erratic vhf, and a number of other things. obviously he looked hard. the two years since, nothing he missed has gone wrong. did i waste my money?
My Surveyor had a Disclaimer
With a surveyor you are buying an opinion. Very few are willing to be liable for anything they do or don't say. My wiring is substandard and I plan to have it redone soon. My surveyor didn't mention it in his report. A self survey doesn't have to take a lot of time. As you walk through the boat you check things on a list. Are the chain plates OK? Are their cracks? Is the mast base corroded?? If you start adding up a lot of repairs and the condition doesn't match the price walk away. If everything looks good then you place a deposit that is refundable if the boat doesn't survey well. A self survey is just a more organised formal way to look at a boat. It is so easy to fall in love with a boat and ignore the leaking keel bolts,rusty rigging and blown out sails. Then on the honeymoon you start to notice the warts!!!! On the gulf it cost me $150 for a quick in and out haulout to look at the bottom. But that was during the survey and a final step before purchasing the boat. It would have been very expensive to haul out every one of the 30 or so boats that we looked at before finding the one we bought. The survey and haulout were about $500 if I remember correctly. A lot of the boats that we looked at we decided not to buy withing 5 minutes. A couple we looked at for more than an hour. Two we took sailing. The one we almost bought the owner kept insisting that a haul out wasn't needed. But when I but on a mask and snorkle I quickly found out that the bottom was very badly blistered. It would have cost a lot to fix!!! I came so very close to buying that boat without looking at the bottom!!!! Luckily the water was warm and I had a mask in the car otherwise I would have bought an expensive problem.
With a surveyor you are buying an opinion. Very few are willing to be liable for anything they do or don't say. My wiring is substandard and I plan to have it redone soon. My surveyor didn't mention it in his report. A self survey doesn't have to take a lot of time. As you walk through the boat you check things on a list. Are the chain plates OK? Are their cracks? Is the mast base corroded?? If you start adding up a lot of repairs and the condition doesn't match the price walk away. If everything looks good then you place a deposit that is refundable if the boat doesn't survey well. A self survey is just a more organised formal way to look at a boat. It is so easy to fall in love with a boat and ignore the leaking keel bolts,rusty rigging and blown out sails. Then on the honeymoon you start to notice the warts!!!! On the gulf it cost me $150 for a quick in and out haulout to look at the bottom. But that was during the survey and a final step before purchasing the boat. It would have been very expensive to haul out every one of the 30 or so boats that we looked at before finding the one we bought. The survey and haulout were about $500 if I remember correctly. A lot of the boats that we looked at we decided not to buy withing 5 minutes. A couple we looked at for more than an hour. Two we took sailing. The one we almost bought the owner kept insisting that a haul out wasn't needed. But when I but on a mask and snorkle I quickly found out that the bottom was very badly blistered. It would have cost a lot to fix!!! I came so very close to buying that boat without looking at the bottom!!!! Luckily the water was warm and I had a mask in the car otherwise I would have bought an expensive problem.
new boat
tom, you paid somebody to survey a boat and signed that no matter how he screwed up it was just too bad for you? do you need any further work done?
tom, you paid somebody to survey a boat and signed that no matter how he screwed up it was just too bad for you? do you need any further work done?
The surveyor’s disclaimer
sorta makes me think of taking my car to the garage for repairs and seeing a huge sign over the bay door: WE DON’T GUARANTEE OUR WORK!!! Paul
sorta makes me think of taking my car to the garage for repairs and seeing a huge sign over the bay door: WE DON’T GUARANTEE OUR WORK!!! Paul
new boat
paul, let's neither of us get excited until we see both the disclaimer and any court's opinion of its validity in case of incompetence or negligence.
paul, let's neither of us get excited until we see both the disclaimer and any court's opinion of its validity in case of incompetence or negligence.
Mortyd...
Having bought a new-to-us boat this year, I’ve seen the disclaimer. Going into a business transaction with a court action in mind is not particularly uplifting. Here’s the disclaimer from a member of The Society of Accredited Marine Surveyors and The American Boat and Yacht Council: “The enclosed are my considered opinions and I am not to be held responsible for any inaccuracy, omission, misstatement, or error in judgement. Acceptance of this survey constitutes acceptance of this disclaimer.” I'm not getting excited - - - just stating a fact. Paul
Having bought a new-to-us boat this year, I’ve seen the disclaimer. Going into a business transaction with a court action in mind is not particularly uplifting. Here’s the disclaimer from a member of The Society of Accredited Marine Surveyors and The American Boat and Yacht Council: “The enclosed are my considered opinions and I am not to be held responsible for any inaccuracy, omission, misstatement, or error in judgement. Acceptance of this survey constitutes acceptance of this disclaimer.” I'm not getting excited - - - just stating a fact. Paul
new boat
paul, we're on the same side, but nobody or nothing can make you forfeit the right to a competent job once you've paid money in america. by the way, i've never sued anyone, but still know my rights. and, i sure would not accept that survey and toss them away. you pay, you have the right to an honest and concientious professional opinion and for the giver of that opinion to stand behind what he says.
paul, we're on the same side, but nobody or nothing can make you forfeit the right to a competent job once you've paid money in america. by the way, i've never sued anyone, but still know my rights. and, i sure would not accept that survey and toss them away. you pay, you have the right to an honest and concientious professional opinion and for the giver of that opinion to stand behind what he says.
new boat
ok guys, i quote my survey. "this report is submitted without prejudice and is for the exclusive use of (myself). This report i no way is to be construed as a warantee or guarantee of the vessel or the equipment therein. the survey details the condition of the vessel at the time of the inspection and represents the undersigned opinion but by submitting this survey does not hold the surveyor liable to any reliance on information based on this survey." i see nothing here that lets the surveyor off the hook for obvious errors that should not have been committted or omitted, does anyone slse?
ok guys, i quote my survey. "this report is submitted without prejudice and is for the exclusive use of (myself). This report i no way is to be construed as a warantee or guarantee of the vessel or the equipment therein. the survey details the condition of the vessel at the time of the inspection and represents the undersigned opinion but by submitting this survey does not hold the surveyor liable to any reliance on information based on this survey." i see nothing here that lets the surveyor off the hook for obvious errors that should not have been committted or omitted, does anyone slse?
...but by submitting
this survey does not hold the surveyor liable to any reliance on information based on this survey."
this survey does not hold the surveyor liable to any reliance on information based on this survey."
Limitation of liability valid
provision in survey contract. You can sue for failure to perform to industry standard and you have a remedy, but if you look further dwon the contract you will see that your remedy is limited to basically a refund. Some service industries ( doctors lawyers) are prohibited by the terms of their professional licensing to put such limitaiton provision in their contracts. Not the case for marine surveyors. A suvey is not insurance or a maintenance/warranty contract.
provision in survey contract. You can sue for failure to perform to industry standard and you have a remedy, but if you look further dwon the contract you will see that your remedy is limited to basically a refund. Some service industries ( doctors lawyers) are prohibited by the terms of their professional licensing to put such limitaiton provision in their contracts. Not the case for marine surveyors. A suvey is not insurance or a maintenance/warranty contract.
A professional opinion for which you paid
value carries an implied warrenty. My surveyor told me that no surveyor can or will certify the seaworthiess of a boat because he has no control over how the boat will be handled. He did state that he didn't find material defects in the structure of the hull or of the standing rigging. The mechanical systems met his standards for workmanship. He pointed out a few minor safety items that were needed, like a gauge on the high pressure side of the propane system, and a couple of more supports on some of the engine hoses. I think that a surveyor should be able to detail defects that will require attention in order to maintain the safety of the boat and those items that will affect the appearance of the boat if they are neglected. As to whether or not he can form an opinion on the condition of the sails, I think that is a very subjective area, what would be just fine for a weekender and occasional cruiser might be worthless for a club racer. Giving an opinion on the adequacy of the ground tackle is an area that is full of pitfalls. A chafed rode is obvious but a 15 pound Danforth on 10 feet of 1/4 chain and 150 feet of 1/2 nylon on a thirty foot boat? some people here have said that is what they use. I think that it is fair to believe that the cabin furniture will stay in place if you sail into a storm and a surveyor stated that he found no material defects. And I believe that the judge would also think so.
value carries an implied warrenty. My surveyor told me that no surveyor can or will certify the seaworthiess of a boat because he has no control over how the boat will be handled. He did state that he didn't find material defects in the structure of the hull or of the standing rigging. The mechanical systems met his standards for workmanship. He pointed out a few minor safety items that were needed, like a gauge on the high pressure side of the propane system, and a couple of more supports on some of the engine hoses. I think that a surveyor should be able to detail defects that will require attention in order to maintain the safety of the boat and those items that will affect the appearance of the boat if they are neglected. As to whether or not he can form an opinion on the condition of the sails, I think that is a very subjective area, what would be just fine for a weekender and occasional cruiser might be worthless for a club racer. Giving an opinion on the adequacy of the ground tackle is an area that is full of pitfalls. A chafed rode is obvious but a 15 pound Danforth on 10 feet of 1/4 chain and 150 feet of 1/2 nylon on a thirty foot boat? some people here have said that is what they use. I think that it is fair to believe that the cabin furniture will stay in place if you sail into a storm and a surveyor stated that he found no material defects. And I believe that the judge would also think so.
As a former surveyor....
Formerly as a SAMS surveyor, wooden boat builder, fiberglass repair business, small diesel mechanic, 30 years combined, I can't tell you how many people I told to not walk, or even walk fast, but run! After pointing out why, and educating them on why, they thanked me for saving them. While we know that a survey is necessary for bank and insurance, you would expect a marine professional to uncover and expose areas of fault that go beyond the average sailors knowledge and is what one would expect, especially at $15 or $20 a foot! Recently, I hired a surveyor to survey my newly purchased sailboat for C & V, condition and valuation, for insurance only. I never told him my former employment, and just let him go ahead and do his thing. I knew of a few minor items that should have caught his attention and at least one that should have sounded his alarm, but none did he notice other than the lpg tank cover and lazarette hatch, which indicated through mechanical sounding minor core delamination, oh, and there was the obsolete lpg tank....and that was it! Basically, this surveyor used the check-off list and if it wasn't included as an item to check off in his list it would be ignored I guess! The boat passed survey and I got my insurance. The major item he missed on my 29 year old 43' fiberglass sailboat was the 1/4" steel upper rudder post support structure that is bolted to frp floors and frames, just below the quadrant. The steel support structure had rusted nearly through and was in my opinion a liability waiting to happen....he missed it completely! If he had caught it, it would have been on his recommendations list and I would have had to have it repaired before any underwriter would sign me. I have since repaired that support structure and I never really did care what he thought because I needed his report for my insurance but I was surprised how much he missed and I was told he was one of the better ones! I surveyed yachts and small craft for 9 years. It took me 2 to 3 days to write the 12 to 15 page report and each report was a full examination written in detail custom to only that boat. Most if not all of my clients got an education about the boat they were looking at. 1/3 or more of the boats I surveyed I told the perspective buyer to get their deposits back and run, most if not all of those clients were ignorant to my findings and while some had no boating experience, others had plenty, but were still ignorant. There are based from my experience just as many crooks, thieves, con artist, you name it, even at the top, for marine surveyors, as there are honest and well educated marine professional marine surveyors, just as in any profession. Sounds like some here got the former body and fender ins. adjuster gone surveyor who wasn't the real deal!
Formerly as a SAMS surveyor, wooden boat builder, fiberglass repair business, small diesel mechanic, 30 years combined, I can't tell you how many people I told to not walk, or even walk fast, but run! After pointing out why, and educating them on why, they thanked me for saving them. While we know that a survey is necessary for bank and insurance, you would expect a marine professional to uncover and expose areas of fault that go beyond the average sailors knowledge and is what one would expect, especially at $15 or $20 a foot! Recently, I hired a surveyor to survey my newly purchased sailboat for C & V, condition and valuation, for insurance only. I never told him my former employment, and just let him go ahead and do his thing. I knew of a few minor items that should have caught his attention and at least one that should have sounded his alarm, but none did he notice other than the lpg tank cover and lazarette hatch, which indicated through mechanical sounding minor core delamination, oh, and there was the obsolete lpg tank....and that was it! Basically, this surveyor used the check-off list and if it wasn't included as an item to check off in his list it would be ignored I guess! The boat passed survey and I got my insurance. The major item he missed on my 29 year old 43' fiberglass sailboat was the 1/4" steel upper rudder post support structure that is bolted to frp floors and frames, just below the quadrant. The steel support structure had rusted nearly through and was in my opinion a liability waiting to happen....he missed it completely! If he had caught it, it would have been on his recommendations list and I would have had to have it repaired before any underwriter would sign me. I have since repaired that support structure and I never really did care what he thought because I needed his report for my insurance but I was surprised how much he missed and I was told he was one of the better ones! I surveyed yachts and small craft for 9 years. It took me 2 to 3 days to write the 12 to 15 page report and each report was a full examination written in detail custom to only that boat. Most if not all of my clients got an education about the boat they were looking at. 1/3 or more of the boats I surveyed I told the perspective buyer to get their deposits back and run, most if not all of those clients were ignorant to my findings and while some had no boating experience, others had plenty, but were still ignorant. There are based from my experience just as many crooks, thieves, con artist, you name it, even at the top, for marine surveyors, as there are honest and well educated marine professional marine surveyors, just as in any profession. Sounds like some here got the former body and fender ins. adjuster gone surveyor who wasn't the real deal!
new boat
former surveyor, i suggest reading mark twain's story 'my watch,' not only does it address this exact situation, but you will laugh your barnacles off.
former surveyor, i suggest reading mark twain's story 'my watch,' not only does it address this exact situation, but you will laugh your barnacles off.
Well, I went to both sites...
Bucnet and NADA. Neither of them had pricing on the 1976 Yamaha 33. Bucnet only went to 1979 and NADA only to 1978. But that enough info to give me a good estimate on what the boat's relative value. That's a good start. We'll see what happens tomorrow. Thanks again for everyones comments.
Bucnet and NADA. Neither of them had pricing on the 1976 Yamaha 33. Bucnet only went to 1979 and NADA only to 1978. But that enough info to give me a good estimate on what the boat's relative value. That's a good start. We'll see what happens tomorrow. Thanks again for everyones comments.
Surveyor attaboys
This is a little off topic, but it's saturday and Brian is probably out looking at the boat anyway. I was a little dismayed to see all of the responses addressing the surveyors "liability" for things he missed. Hypothetical example: You paid your surveyor $1000 to survey a $150,000 boat and the salvage divers report that they found something you would have expected the surveyor to catch. But the boat is in 100' of water and a constructive total loss. "I'm gonna sue" So what's that gonna get you? If the guy has enough money to just pay out $150,000 what's he doing surveying boats? So you're gonna be in court forever, and when you do get your judgement, if you get your judgement, now you've got to collect. Am I the only one that's asking, "What's wrong with this picture?" First of all, you insure your boat for what it would cost to replace it. If you can't afford that, you spent too much on the boat. Second, you don't sweat the small stuff, anybody can miss delamination of the rubber non-skid on the bottom of the monogrammed coffee cups. They say that a satisfied customer tells five people and that a dissatisfied customer tells 100 people. What's wrong with that picture? If you have a good experience with someone; that is, everything works out just as you wished, tell everybody about it. Write the surveyor a letter that he can file and show to prospective clients. I am in a service business, and most of my customers don't know me from Adam. I have a sheaf of letters, with the writers tel. nos., that my customers can refer to. By the way, none of those letters refer to how "cheap" or inexpensive I was. Most of those letters I had to ask for! No, not under duress. I got positive feedback and asked if they'd jot something down for me. We have only ourselves to blame for a lot of this. Do we write a letter to the editor of our local paper extolling the virtues of the service technician who fixed our furnace, alerted us to some deficiencies that should be addressed, and also noticed our rubber washing machine hoses were bulging and should be replaced (not even his area of expertise)? Do we post a letter at our marina/yacht club/west marine store bulletin board reporting the good experience we had. Do we go on-line and do the same? Hell, no. We only carp and discuss our legal options. A young surveyor, starting out, has got to do twice the job as the older guy, for less money, and hope that word spreads and someday he'll be successful, charge more and work a little less. Shoot, we all want that. The prospective boat buyer just wants to find someone they can trust; he knows it's going to be a stranger to him. How does he find that person? Advertising? How do you get the truth from that? Not too many are adverting, "last in my class standing at hull sounding", or "thousands of slow sinkings on file". The customer gets nothing from the referral, but he does an invaluable service for 'Joe Tiller' who's looking to tell him about the core problrms on his prospective dream-boat. Sorry about the rant. Blame it or thank EagleSailTwo, he got me thinking. Guy
This is a little off topic, but it's saturday and Brian is probably out looking at the boat anyway. I was a little dismayed to see all of the responses addressing the surveyors "liability" for things he missed. Hypothetical example: You paid your surveyor $1000 to survey a $150,000 boat and the salvage divers report that they found something you would have expected the surveyor to catch. But the boat is in 100' of water and a constructive total loss. "I'm gonna sue" So what's that gonna get you? If the guy has enough money to just pay out $150,000 what's he doing surveying boats? So you're gonna be in court forever, and when you do get your judgement, if you get your judgement, now you've got to collect. Am I the only one that's asking, "What's wrong with this picture?" First of all, you insure your boat for what it would cost to replace it. If you can't afford that, you spent too much on the boat. Second, you don't sweat the small stuff, anybody can miss delamination of the rubber non-skid on the bottom of the monogrammed coffee cups. They say that a satisfied customer tells five people and that a dissatisfied customer tells 100 people. What's wrong with that picture? If you have a good experience with someone; that is, everything works out just as you wished, tell everybody about it. Write the surveyor a letter that he can file and show to prospective clients. I am in a service business, and most of my customers don't know me from Adam. I have a sheaf of letters, with the writers tel. nos., that my customers can refer to. By the way, none of those letters refer to how "cheap" or inexpensive I was. Most of those letters I had to ask for! No, not under duress. I got positive feedback and asked if they'd jot something down for me. We have only ourselves to blame for a lot of this. Do we write a letter to the editor of our local paper extolling the virtues of the service technician who fixed our furnace, alerted us to some deficiencies that should be addressed, and also noticed our rubber washing machine hoses were bulging and should be replaced (not even his area of expertise)? Do we post a letter at our marina/yacht club/west marine store bulletin board reporting the good experience we had. Do we go on-line and do the same? Hell, no. We only carp and discuss our legal options. A young surveyor, starting out, has got to do twice the job as the older guy, for less money, and hope that word spreads and someday he'll be successful, charge more and work a little less. Shoot, we all want that. The prospective boat buyer just wants to find someone they can trust; he knows it's going to be a stranger to him. How does he find that person? Advertising? How do you get the truth from that? Not too many are adverting, "last in my class standing at hull sounding", or "thousands of slow sinkings on file". The customer gets nothing from the referral, but he does an invaluable service for 'Joe Tiller' who's looking to tell him about the core problrms on his prospective dream-boat. Sorry about the rant. Blame it or thank EagleSailTwo, he got me thinking. Guy
Just got back from looking...
I errored. It was a 1978 Yamaha 33. This boat is in primo condition top side. I couldn't find a surface checking anywhere. No blisters anywhere. No nothing anywhere. The deck was rock solid. The standing rigging was in excellent condition. Down below, the cabin was cluttered but one can tell that there was plenty of room. Woodwork was in excellent condition. Forward in the V berth is the engine. Strange, but I had heard that Yamaha put their engines forward. It was a single cylinder and had a wee bit of vibration. I guess that is normal for a diesel. Over all with just a first inspection, the boat is well worth what he is asking. Since there was a discussion that brokers take 10%, not here. It is more like 18% to 20%. Next Saturday at 10:00 I will have a sea trial. The owner is not anxious to sell the boat, but his wife doesn't want it around anymore. So it must go. He's had the boat for 28 years. Same boat. When we were talking about me taking over the boat he started to show emotion. The guy does not want to sell it. He says if I buy it, he will work with me on all the little things he has learned about the boat over the 28 years. A very nice man. I spent 2 hours asking him question after question about the hull, keel, engine, rigging, what works and what doesn't. He was very straight forward with his answers. After the sea trial, I will make him an offer. Close to his asking price but just a little under.
I errored. It was a 1978 Yamaha 33. This boat is in primo condition top side. I couldn't find a surface checking anywhere. No blisters anywhere. No nothing anywhere. The deck was rock solid. The standing rigging was in excellent condition. Down below, the cabin was cluttered but one can tell that there was plenty of room. Woodwork was in excellent condition. Forward in the V berth is the engine. Strange, but I had heard that Yamaha put their engines forward. It was a single cylinder and had a wee bit of vibration. I guess that is normal for a diesel. Over all with just a first inspection, the boat is well worth what he is asking. Since there was a discussion that brokers take 10%, not here. It is more like 18% to 20%. Next Saturday at 10:00 I will have a sea trial. The owner is not anxious to sell the boat, but his wife doesn't want it around anymore. So it must go. He's had the boat for 28 years. Same boat. When we were talking about me taking over the boat he started to show emotion. The guy does not want to sell it. He says if I buy it, he will work with me on all the little things he has learned about the boat over the 28 years. A very nice man. I spent 2 hours asking him question after question about the hull, keel, engine, rigging, what works and what doesn't. He was very straight forward with his answers. After the sea trial, I will make him an offer. Close to his asking price but just a little under.
new boat
he ran the engine and next week he's going to let you sail his boat? with no money? next time i'm looking for a boat i'll have to change coasts. my apologies for misunderstanding how you folk do things there.
he ran the engine and next week he's going to let you sail his boat? with no money? next time i'm looking for a boat i'll have to change coasts. my apologies for misunderstanding how you folk do things there.
- Status