Looking at 94 Passage 42 with small crack at keel/hull joint

[Wanderwind]

Hi, I've posted here about a 94 Passage 42 I'm looking at purchasing. I took a look at it up on the hard yesterday and noticed a small crack 6-8 inches long at the aft end of the keel/hull joint. I am having a survey done today and am wondering if there's anything specific I should have the surveyor take a closer look at regarding this to eliminate possibility of major issues.

It seems odd that the crack is on the aft end of the keel. I would have expected it on the front if it was the result of a hard grounding.

Any thoughts/ideas from more experienced Hunter owners?

Thank you!

 

[Puesta del sol]

I had a smaller version of that on my 91 P42. When I dug into it with a flat blade screwdriver it was only a surface crack.

Show it to survey person. Have them take a good look at the keel bolts and take a good look at the rudder where it aligns with the hull. If you are serious about buying ask the owner of you can dig into it a little - worse case they could apply some quick drying Epoxy if it is going back in the water for any length of time

I am no expert so take this for what it is worth

 

[Rick D]

Had the same on a near new 32. The yard ground out the crack, applied filler and re-torqued the keel bolts. Never an issue for the next nine years.

 

[cajon409]

Have a 95 430, bottom job done 4 1/5 years ago noticed 4-6in crack in same spot, They did a lite fill in, Every 6mts have bottom end cleaned. Had bottom job performed year and a half ago done, same crack was again informed stress/surface crack. had a quick haul again last mt. had my guy inspect it again. He informed me again that it was a stress/surface crack that these type of keels on the Hunters was hollowed somewhat on the rear, we went around several hunters on lot with same concern. Keel bolts are great. He said to satisfy my ocd, next bottom job he was going to grind out and fill.. No concerns.

 

[Terry Cox]

A puzzle. Our 1991 has never had that type of crack. And that appears, from the photo, to be at the stub joint. Our crack was on the leading edge caused from a glancing reef strike in 2004. Repair remains solid.

 

[Wanderwind]

Thank you everyone for your suggestions.
I pointed it out to the surveyor who said it was not a big deal. He said the first keel bolt is at least a foot from the edge and the crack is probably caused by the hull flexing independently of the keel. He recommend not filling it and just leaving it like it is. He said if water were to get in to where the keel bolts are, it would be better for the water to have a way in/out as trapped water would corrode the bolts due to lack of oxygen.

 

[splax]

from the Fastenal site: "It is important to understand that
there are several different types of corrosion including galvanic
corrosion, concentration-cell corrosion, stress corrosion, fretting
corrosion, pitting, and oxidation. The most common form of
corrosion is rust (oxidation) associated with steel structures and
fasteners, although the effects of corrosive attack can be seen in
many other structural materials."
There is plenty of oxygen in the water to oxidize your bolts. A fresh supply of water brings more oxygen. You need to drain, fill, and seal the void/crack to preserve the integrity of your keel. If your keel is electrically connected to the boat system, corrosion could be quickly catastrophic. Get a qualified surveyor.

 

[Paul Cossman]

Wanderwind,
In the 25+ years I've had my P42 I've noticed a crack in that area several times. Each time I grind it down to where the crack disappears and then I fill it in and paint it. I've never seen it go beyond cosmetic on my boat at any time. And I have had "soft" groundings on sand, on mud, and on coral, but never hard aground on those types of surfaces; always "skidding." I would think it would be a good idea to sand or grind down the crack to ensure that it is only cosmetic.
Having said that, my cracks have always been very straight and clearly the result of movement along the keel connection surface. Your cracks are somewhat irregular, and may be indicative of something a bit more problematic. It's just hard to tell from the photos. My gut tells me that it's something similar to what I have experienced. I have never had a surveyor think it was an "issue."

 

[splax]

Paul,
The crack may be cosmetic, if no water is entering the keel, delaminating the fiberglass, or causing corrosion. I find it hard to believe that you have not had water drain from your "cosmetic" crack when you have hauled the boat. The person surveying the boat must have a good understanding and experience with things that cause degradation of the boat. The comment about water flow and trapped water causing corrosion due to a lack of oxygen shows a dangerous level of ignorance.

 

[Paul Cossman]

Hi Splax,
I think we may be talking apples and oranges. I see that you have a 34. My 1991 P42 (and presumably the 1994 P42 Wanderwind is looking at buying) does not have any fiberglass in the keel. It is solid lead, without any encasement. The keel bolts go directly into the receiving "stump" in the bottom of the hull of the vessel. Although I am not sure of the adhesive between the keel and the hull, I suspect it is 5200. The cracks I am describing are akin to the type of cracks one sees in stress cracks in gel coat. I call these cosmetic since the cracks are less than 1/8" deep. There is no space for water to drain from. The cracks are not in the keel, or in the hull, but in the outer 1/8" of this keel/hull joint. There is nowhere for this water to flow to, as the crack is superficial. I don't claim to understand anything about trapped water and anoxic corrosion. I'm just pointing out that there is no water flow here, and it may be different in a Hunter 34 keel.

 

[splax]

Well. The 34 has an iron keel wrapped in fiberglass mating to the hull stub. Due to movement of the keel relative to the hull cracks appear ("Hunter smile") and let water into the fiberglass layers and to the iron keel creating oxidation which in turn makes more voids for water to access the keel. I assumed the P42 had a similar setup and I apologize for not making sure. Regarding the crack I believe repair is in order to preclude water getting to the keel bolts. A crack at the stub is a sure path to the bolts provided water has its way.

 

[Wanderwind]

Each time I grind it down to where the crack disappears and then I fill it in and paint it. I've never seen it go beyond cosmetic on my boat at any time.

I like that idea. How else would you know how deep it is? What do you fill it with? Thickened resin?

 

[Paul Cossman]

I like that idea. How else would you know how deep it is? What do you fill it with? Thickened resin?

When it's been really shallow, I don't even fill it. I just paint directly over it after fairing out the crack. When it's been deeper, I've used thickened resin. It's always been a simple and quick matter. It's never been deep enough to fear water intrusion to the keel bolts.

Good luck,
Paul

 

[Paul Cossman]

I also found and copied this excerpt from a survey I had done back in 2010: "Cast lead fin (wing) keel is bolted and bonded to the fiberglass base molded with the hull. Port
wing is slightly distorted due to a soft grounding early in the boat’s career. The boat has since been cruised extensively - Mexico, two round trips to New Zealand, Tonga, Fiji, California coast. There is no indication of movement at keel-hull joint. Keel bolts appear in good condition in bilge area, and have been re-tightened as part of owner’s on-going maintenance
schedule. Minor gel crack noted in forward end of keel was ground open for inspection; no adverse conditions noted by boatyard inspector." I included a photo of the crack he was referring to before I ground it down and repainted it.

 

[eianm]

i had EXACTLY the same crack where the keels joins the boat- just filled it and painted- certainly no problem!

 

[Franklin]

from the Fastenal site: "It is important to understand that
there are several different types of corrosion including galvanic
corrosion, concentration-cell corrosion, stress corrosion, fretting
corrosion, pitting, and oxidation. The most common form of
corrosion is rust (oxidation) associated with steel structures and
fasteners, although the effects of corrosive attack can be seen in
many other structural materials."
There is plenty of oxygen in the water to oxidize your bolts. A fresh supply of water brings more oxygen. You need to drain, fill, and seal the void/crack to preserve the integrity of your keel. If your keel is electrically connected to the boat system, corrosion could be quickly catastrophic. Get a qualified surveyor.

Ummmm.....NOT!!!!

Rust is not a problem with stainless steal keel bolts, crevice corrosion is. Crevice corrosion is where water gets in and reacts with the metal creating an acid that will eat away at the metal if it is stagnant water. Take for example your SS prop shaft. It doesn't rust. It doesn't corrode either because the water is not stagnant so no acid problem. This is always why it is no big deal for the bilge to constantly have saltwater in it as long as it gets flushed now and then to remove any acid buildup.

If water seeps in through cracks to the keel bolts, that water is stagnant though and no, keeping the crack open does not flush the water out unless the boat is hauled out constantly. Most Hunters and many other boats have the smile that allows water between the keel and fiberglass and many repair that smile each time they haul out. Just because it has a smile and water drains from it when hauled out doesn't mean it is reaching the keel bolts. However, the only way to find out is to drop the keel (as far as I know).

Hunter uses an epoxy filler mix to create a flexible but sticky material -- sounds a lot like 5200 huh -- when mounting the keel. The keel box is designed to flex to take stress off the bolts and the area where the bolts are mounted. That is the strength of the design which makes it a great keel setup. The downside means there will always be a smile as iron/lead does not flex. The mounting compound is supposed to keep the water off the keel bolts, not the mating surface of the iron/lead to the fiberglass.

Also, the only thing Hunter attaches to the keel bolts is grounding for the mast in case of a lighting strike. Hunter smartly does not bond anything to them.

 

[hughvr]

I have a 1999 420 that had the same thing. I repainted it for several years until after a hard trip down the coast several days. The aft keel bolt (the long one that is smaller than the 8 big ones) started leaking. Since Hunter used an epoxy resin to glue the keel on, it couldn't be removed by the heated piano wire method and had to be ripped off. The keel sump had old damage at the aft end that had been filled by a previous owner with bondo. The keel sump had to be re-glassed and levelled, then the keel was reseated in 5200. Very expensive and long process. Make sure your surveyor looks at this very closely. I would steer clear of this if I were buying.

 

[hughvr]

My Hunter took a lighting strike and discharged it through the keel as designed. It did singe the wire where it attaches to the small plate that fits over the keel bolt, and the plate was pitted on the bottom. Cleaned it up an reinstalled. Great to have.

 

[Wanderwind]

The aft keel bolt (the long one that is smaller than the 8 big ones) started leaking.

Wow. Leaking as in seawater was coming into the bilge around it?

Since Hunter used an epoxy resin to glue the keel on, it couldn't be removed by the heated piano wire method and had to be ripped off. The keel sump had old damage at the aft end that had been filled by a previous owner with bondo. The keel sump had to be re-glassed and levelled, then the keel was reseated in 5200. Very expensive and long process.

That sounds expensive!

Make sure your surveyor looks at this very closely. I would steer clear of this if I were buying.

Surveyor was unconcerned. Said I should just bottom paint over it. I might grind it out just to see how deep it is. I checked out the bilge pretty well and it all looked original to me. So we ended up buying the boat.

 

[Franklin]

I have a 1999 420 that had the same thing. I repainted it for several years until after a hard trip down the coast several days. The aft keel bolt (the long one that is smaller than the 8 big ones) started leaking. Since Hunter used an epoxy resin to glue the keel on, it couldn't be removed by the heated piano wire method and had to be ripped off. The keel sump had old damage at the aft end that had been filled by a previous owner with bondo. The keel sump had to be re-glassed and levelled, then the keel was reseated in 5200. Very expensive and long process. Make sure your surveyor looks at this very closely. I would steer clear of this if I were buying.

I would have to say the reason for your leaky bolt was due to what ever caused that big crack back there. The keel smile is a normal thing on these boats and not a sign of a problem. The OP is talking about just the smile, not some damaged keel stub.