Longer oil Filter

RichH · Dec 30, 2007

Steve this is a prime example of MISLEADING marketing.....

What Steve links to is the Ultimate BS marketing hype that erroneously places one filter manufacturer over another .... what is claimed in the specific link is 'snake-oil' meant to slant towards only one certain manufacturer. This linked website is an example of pure and simple misleading information and is meant to slant and trap the unaware. The 'standard' for testing of 'oil filters' on this planet is what's known as the "OSU F2 test stand" (OSU = Okla State Univ.) ... and is correlated via a standardized ASTM method. You MUST be aware that filter manufacturers use a 'special jargon' that unless you really know what is offered may be quite harmful. What Im stating is that filter manufacturers 'rate' their product but leave out a lot of information and unless you know 'filter-speak' you can be VERY easily be mislead. In 'filter speak' a 5uM filter from one manufacture is usually NOT equal to a 5uM filter from another manufacturer -- the 'ratings' are entirely arbitrarily applied by the various 'packagers' ... meaning a filter manufacturer using cellulosic filter media can put ANY rating they feel like on a product and still be correct ???!!!! Also the term 'micron' has been obsolete for about 25 years, so when I see the term 'micron' I wince and then expect BS to follow ... the correct term for the past 25 years has been 'micrometer'. Cellulosic filter media cannot be an 'absolute' rated filter ... it can only approach its rating by a weight/mass reduction of influent particle to effluent particle to a PERCENT RETENTION efficiency (in filter-speak called a beta-efficiency ratio). For example, a cellulosic filter rated at 10µM, can by the F2 definition occasionally pass a particle the size of a BASKETBALL and still be 'rated' at 10µM. What the manufacturer/packager is actually telling you is an arbitraty *****NOMINAL****** rating at such and such value and if the manufacturer or marketeer doesnt explain the additional value of 'nominal' -- you have absolutely NO way of telling what you are getting. For example the SAME filter material may have 90% wt. reduction at 1µM, a 95% wt. reduction at 5µM, a 97% wt. reduction at 10µM ... and manufacture A will call it a 1µM, B a 5µM and C a 10µM !!!!!!!!!! and this is JARGON thats only known to 'insiders' leaving the unwashed and unenlightened 'consumer' to think whatever they want. The exclusive use of "OEM" filters is costly simply and solely by 'margins', doesnt correlate to the truth, in most cases is the SAME EXACT filter material being used by just about everyone else (except the shysters) in the industry. ...... and what is on that website is PURE UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIMS that are used by slick 'marketeers' to trap the unwary. So, does the person who authored that site have any 'connection' to the brand recommended? .... I'll bet the FARM he does as when I, as one deeply involved in filtration engineering for well over 30 years, sees such unsupported and unsubstantiated blather .... I can only think of 'snake oil salesmen. I'll stand on the statements in my previous post. ;-)

RichH · Dec 30, 2007

Steve this is a prime example of MISLEADING marketing.....

What Steve links to is the Ultimate BS marketing hype that erroneously places one filter manufacturer over another .... what is claimed in the specific link is 'snake-oil' meant to slant towards only one certain manufacturer. This linked website is an example of pure and simple misleading information and is meant to slant and trap the unaware. The 'standard' for testing of 'oil filters' on this planet is what's known as the "OSU F2 test stand" (OSU = Okla State Univ.) ... and is correlated via a standardized ASTM method. You MUST be aware that filter manufacturers use a 'special jargon' that unless you really know what is offered may be quite harmful. What Im stating is that filter manufacturers 'rate' their product but leave out a lot of information and unless you know 'filter-speak' you can be VERY easily be mislead. In 'filter speak' a 5uM filter from one manufacture is usually NOT equal to a 5uM filter from another manufacturer -- the 'ratings' are entirely arbitrarily applied by the various 'packagers' ... meaning a filter manufacturer using cellulosic filter media can put ANY rating they feel like on a product and still be correct ???!!!! Also the term 'micron' has been obsolete for about 25 years, so when I see the term 'micron' I wince and then expect BS to follow ... the correct term for the past 25 years has been 'micrometer'. Cellulosic filter media cannot be an 'absolute' rated filter ... it can only approach its rating by a weight/mass reduction of influent particle to effluent particle to a PERCENT RETENTION efficiency (in filter-speak called a beta-efficiency ratio). For example, a cellulosic filter rated at 10µM, can by the F2 definition occasionally pass a particle the size of a BASKETBALL and still be 'rated' at 10µM. What the manufacturer/packager is actually telling you is an arbitraty *****NOMINAL****** rating at such and such value and if the manufacturer or marketeer doesnt explain the additional value of 'nominal' -- you have absolutely NO way of telling what you are getting. For example the SAME filter material may have 90% wt. reduction at 1µM, a 95% wt. reduction at 5µM, a 97% wt. reduction at 10µM ... and manufacture A will call it a 1µM, B a 5µM and C a 10µM !!!!!!!!!! and this is JARGON thats only known to 'insiders' leaving the unwashed and unenlightened 'consumer' to think whatever they want. The exclusive use of "OEM" filters is costly simply and solely by 'margins', doesnt correlate to the truth, in most cases is the SAME EXACT filter material being used by just about everyone else (except the shysters) in the industry. ...... and what is on that website is PURE UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIMS that are used by slick 'marketeers' to trap the unwary. So, does the person who authored that site have any 'connection' to the brand recommended? .... I'll bet the FARM he does as when I, as one deeply involved in filtration engineering for well over 30 years, sees such unsupported and unsubstantiated blather .... I can only think of 'snake oil salesmen. I'll stand on the statements in my previous post. ;-)

Maine Sail · Dec 30, 2007

Well...

On my wifes Honda I only use Honda filters with no if's and or butts. Why do I do this? At my dealer they have a cut away of a genuine Honda filter a Fram filter and a Purolator filter. The Honda filter has almost twice the folds of media than do the Purolator or Fram filters. This means the Honda filter has MORE filtering surface area than a standard Fram or Purolator. It's also much more robust in it's construction, so much so, that even a layperson can see it. That's why the dealer cut some open.Do you guys realize you're arguing over a price difference of about $1.00 - $2.00? In boat terms $1.00 or $2.00 is the cost of about one 2 inch long 1/4 X 20 bolt and 1000% insignificant! For christ sake the majority of you guys change your oil ONCE per season!! My Honda dealer sells the genuine Honda filters to me for $1.06 more than I can buy a standard Purolator or Fram for at NAPA. Now if I want the FRAM "Extended Guard" filter which has about the same amount of filter media as the genuine Honda I pay 39% more for the Fram to get an equal amount of filter media...???My wife drives a Honda because they are bullet proof. In 109,000 miles it has had one set of brakes, one headlight and a set of front sway bar bushings. My brother on the other hand chose to install NAPA premium brakes on his Pilot when they wore out and they lasted him all of 6000 miles before the rotors were warped while the genuine Honda brakes lasted 49k and the rotors never warped but the pads finally wore out. These NAPA brakes saved him 16% over the same set of rotors and pads at the dealer but only lasted him 6000 miles so where is the savings???Considering I get considerably less filter media in a standard Fram filter for only $1.06 less than the Honda filter and the FRAM "Extended Guard" costs 39% more than the genuine Honda filter, and is more like it than different, I think I'll stick with genuine Honda parts thank you!I also buy only genuine Westerbeke filters for my engine.... I know I'm sooooo wasteful!!!!The lengths you guys will go to to save a penny is humorous to watch... How many have you have actually eaten coal and tried to crap out a diamond????

Maine Sail · Dec 30, 2007

Well...

On my wifes Honda I only use Honda filters with no if's and or butts. Why do I do this? At my dealer they have a cut away of a genuine Honda filter a Fram filter and a Purolator filter. The Honda filter has almost twice the folds of media than do the Purolator or Fram filters. This means the Honda filter has MORE filtering surface area than a standard Fram or Purolator. It's also much more robust in it's construction, so much so, that even a layperson can see it. That's why the dealer cut some open.Do you guys realize you're arguing over a price difference of about $1.00 - $2.00? In boat terms $1.00 or $2.00 is the cost of about one 2 inch long 1/4 X 20 bolt and 1000% insignificant! For christ sake the majority of you guys change your oil ONCE per season!! My Honda dealer sells the genuine Honda filters to me for $1.06 more than I can buy a standard Purolator or Fram for at NAPA. Now if I want the FRAM "Extended Guard" filter which has about the same amount of filter media as the genuine Honda I pay 39% more for the Fram to get an equal amount of filter media...???My wife drives a Honda because they are bullet proof. In 109,000 miles it has had one set of brakes, one headlight and a set of front sway bar bushings. My brother on the other hand chose to install NAPA premium brakes on his Pilot when they wore out and they lasted him all of 6000 miles before the rotors were warped while the genuine Honda brakes lasted 49k and the rotors never warped but the pads finally wore out. These NAPA brakes saved him 16% over the same set of rotors and pads at the dealer but only lasted him 6000 miles so where is the savings???Considering I get considerably less filter media in a standard Fram filter for only $1.06 less than the Honda filter and the FRAM "Extended Guard" costs 39% more than the genuine Honda filter, and is more like it than different, I think I'll stick with genuine Honda parts thank you!I also buy only genuine Westerbeke filters for my engine.... I know I'm sooooo wasteful!!!!The lengths you guys will go to to save a penny is humorous to watch... How many have you have actually eaten coal and tried to crap out a diamond????

RichH · Dec 31, 2007

Hey Maine .....

Brake rotors warp 99% because the wheel lug nuts arent properly torqued-up and/or the retaining pins arent lubricated; not because of brake material. If you dont clean/'grease' those retaining pins when changing pads, the brakes simply wont fully unload and you'll get excessive pad wear. Take this from a person who routinely gets 400-500+K miles out of an automobile, even the supposed 'bad USA autos'.

RichH · Dec 31, 2007

Hey Maine .....

Brake rotors warp 99% because the wheel lug nuts arent properly torqued-up and/or the retaining pins arent lubricated; not because of brake material. If you dont clean/'grease' those retaining pins when changing pads, the brakes simply wont fully unload and you'll get excessive pad wear. Take this from a person who routinely gets 400-500+K miles out of an automobile, even the supposed 'bad USA autos'.

Maine Sail · Dec 31, 2007

Hey RichH

That may be true that some rotors warp because the lug nuts are to tight or the glide pins are rusty but I'm the one doing the work on both cars so that is just NOT the case! I use my own torque wrench, not a torque stick or impact gun, and tighten in the proper pattern and I certainly ALWAYS clean the glide pins and calipers. I do my own brake jobs because MOST mechanics are to lazy to do it the right way which often times involves wire brushes, 3M Scotch pads or wet sand paper. When I owned Volvo's or BMW's I always found the OEM manufacturer of the factory rotors and used those with good success until the ATE rotors became more money than the ATE rotors with the Volvo logo on the box. I too drive LOTS of miles (sales) and have found, over the years, you do get what you pay for with many, not all, things on a car. For instance, in a purely $$ per mile equation, Michelin tires consistently out last any brand of tire I have ever used even though they cost SIGNIFICANTLY more up front. Honda, Mercedes, Lexus, BMW & Volvo rotors are a few things I don't skimp on. heck even on the Fords I own I find the Motor Craft rotors out last Raybestos about 2:1.. Sure if I can source the OEM manufacturers rotors, without the BMW box, at say Bavarian Autosport (a BMW parst specialist) I buy them but I NEVER, EVER buy brake rotors from Auto Zone, NAPA, Pep Boys or the like because they are cheap crap which I have personally and consistently proven time and time again. My mother is one who insists on cutting corners and gets her brakes done a Pep Boy's & three months later I start hearing how her brakes did not last as long as the ones from the factory and she drives less than 15k per year..If your changing your oil every 3K a Fram won't make a bit of difference but if your pushing it to 5k or 7.5k I for one certainly don't feel comfortable with the lack of filter media in a Fram when compared to the OEM Honda filters..

Maine Sail · Dec 31, 2007

Hey RichH

That may be true that some rotors warp because the lug nuts are to tight or the glide pins are rusty but I'm the one doing the work on both cars so that is just NOT the case! I use my own torque wrench, not a torque stick or impact gun, and tighten in the proper pattern and I certainly ALWAYS clean the glide pins and calipers. I do my own brake jobs because MOST mechanics are to lazy to do it the right way which often times involves wire brushes, 3M Scotch pads or wet sand paper. When I owned Volvo's or BMW's I always found the OEM manufacturer of the factory rotors and used those with good success until the ATE rotors became more money than the ATE rotors with the Volvo logo on the box. I too drive LOTS of miles (sales) and have found, over the years, you do get what you pay for with many, not all, things on a car. For instance, in a purely $$ per mile equation, Michelin tires consistently out last any brand of tire I have ever used even though they cost SIGNIFICANTLY more up front. Honda, Mercedes, Lexus, BMW & Volvo rotors are a few things I don't skimp on. heck even on the Fords I own I find the Motor Craft rotors out last Raybestos about 2:1.. Sure if I can source the OEM manufacturers rotors, without the BMW box, at say Bavarian Autosport (a BMW parst specialist) I buy them but I NEVER, EVER buy brake rotors from Auto Zone, NAPA, Pep Boys or the like because they are cheap crap which I have personally and consistently proven time and time again. My mother is one who insists on cutting corners and gets her brakes done a Pep Boy's & three months later I start hearing how her brakes did not last as long as the ones from the factory and she drives less than 15k per year..If your changing your oil every 3K a Fram won't make a bit of difference but if your pushing it to 5k or 7.5k I for one certainly don't feel comfortable with the lack of filter media in a Fram when compared to the OEM Honda filters..

Big Windy · Dec 31, 2007

Filters

My diesel truck has a 100k warranty...I use OEM filters. As for size, if the filter is mounted vertically and is larger, while the engine is running there will be more oil in the filter than in the engine if using a stock sized filter. Therefore it seems damaged could be done due to not enough oil in the engine if it's in the larger filter. As noted earlier...we're talking a couple of bucks here, why chance it?

Big Windy · Dec 31, 2007

Filters

My diesel truck has a 100k warranty...I use OEM filters. As for size, if the filter is mounted vertically and is larger, while the engine is running there will be more oil in the filter than in the engine if using a stock sized filter. Therefore it seems damaged could be done due to not enough oil in the engine if it's in the larger filter. As noted earlier...we're talking a couple of bucks here, why chance it?

RAD · Dec 31, 2007

Some info on oil filters

http://people.msoe.edu/~yoderw/oilfilterstudy/oilfilterstudy.html

RAD · Dec 31, 2007

Some info on oil filters

http://people.msoe.edu/~yoderw/oilfilterstudy/oilfilterstudy.html