Is there any consensus on whether to lock the keel down? I might be in rocky areas at times and definitely do not want to break something that's difficult to repair (even though I will be as careful as possible) if it's locked down. Is there much of a risk if the keel isn't locked down? That is, if the boat heels over, will the keel come up (and damage something), and/or perhaps not allow the boat to self-right in a knockdown (if the keel swings up)?
Lock the keel down? or not?
- Thread starter pulsewave
- Start date
I am literally in the same boat, The rocky shore of Lake Huron on the Bruce Peninsula has always surprises to offer.
I wonder if some kind of "break-away" mechanism - like a wooden or plastic dowel would work in order to lock the keel down ?
I wonder if some kind of "break-away" mechanism - like a wooden or plastic dowel would work in order to lock the keel down ?
I was thinking the same exact thing. Has anyone tried using a "breakable" lock pin? And if so, what material would be best to make the pin out of?
do a search of this site... there is a lot of information already here on the subject. about the pros and cons, breakaway lock bolts, and the reports of damage because of groundings....
but let me make a friendly yet very clear statement....
the question is not so much as to whether one should lock the keel down as it was designed to be, but more as to why one would be risking the boat sailing in shallow or obstructed waters... you have a swing keel boat which for several reasons can be raised intentionally, but there is no good excusable reason for it to be raised accidentally.... if the boat did NOT have a swing keel, you wouldnt expect ignorance/carelessness/stupidity to save you or the boat, so why would you even consider it just because the manufacture designed the boat so it trailers easily?... with that said, accidents do happen, and when they do you can feel lucky if you and the boat escapes harm, but you shouldnt ever expect to escape harm or damage just because you have the keel bolt out... in some cases it can do more harm by allowing the keel to slam back down after it raises over the obstruction....... if you know the water is obstructed, raise the keel or stay out of the area....
BUT... in clear open water people do unlock the keel for trim when under sail.... IN OPEN, UNOBSTRUCTED WATER..
it isnt the use or mis-use of the lock bolt that is the usual problem, but running the boat into an obstruction will always be a problem, and cannot be considered anything other than mis-use of the boat by the operator.... and ALL of us that has spent any time underway on our boat, has hit an obstruction at one time or another. its programmed into the learning curve
but let me make a friendly yet very clear statement....
the question is not so much as to whether one should lock the keel down as it was designed to be, but more as to why one would be risking the boat sailing in shallow or obstructed waters... you have a swing keel boat which for several reasons can be raised intentionally, but there is no good excusable reason for it to be raised accidentally.... if the boat did NOT have a swing keel, you wouldnt expect ignorance/carelessness/stupidity to save you or the boat, so why would you even consider it just because the manufacture designed the boat so it trailers easily?... with that said, accidents do happen, and when they do you can feel lucky if you and the boat escapes harm, but you shouldnt ever expect to escape harm or damage just because you have the keel bolt out... in some cases it can do more harm by allowing the keel to slam back down after it raises over the obstruction....... if you know the water is obstructed, raise the keel or stay out of the area....
BUT... in clear open water people do unlock the keel for trim when under sail.... IN OPEN, UNOBSTRUCTED WATER..
it isnt the use or mis-use of the lock bolt that is the usual problem, but running the boat into an obstruction will always be a problem, and cannot be considered anything other than mis-use of the boat by the operator.... and ALL of us that has spent any time underway on our boat, has hit an obstruction at one time or another. its programmed into the learning curve
Thanks, all good thoughts, and I agree about using the boat in a way that it was intended. What I'm looking for is a similar option to the Catalina 22's locking bolt that functions by using friction against the side of the centerboard keel. In effect this serves as a last resort to preserve the structure of the boat near the lock bolt. Fixed keels have a relatively even strength throughout the keel area, but the swing keels are vulnerable in one specific spot - the locking bolt. I haven't yet seen a post which specifically addresses the option of setting up a "breakaway" pin that would act similarly to how the Catalina 22 friction system is set up (to let the keel break free of the locking mechanism at a certain impact load tolerance). If anyone has any links for me that would be great.
you wont find any modifications on this site that will make a mac swing keel operation any better than it was built at the factory. they are simple and reliable, and the boat just needs to be treated like any other boat. swing keels have their advantages, but then so do fixed keels.... read this thread... in the middle of the thread there is some thoughts to ponder regarding a keel lock down bolt modification... it matters not, what you stick in the hole, it will either do the job, or it wont, but if it doesnt, the consequences could be much worse than when using the intended hardware as designed...
no matter how hard one tries, some things just cant be redesigned to be idiot proof...
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Let's dispel some myths; It is highly unlikely that a swing keel boat that runs aground with a locked keel will cause any damage to the keel trunk or pivot assembly. It will likely stop dead on its tracks with no damage. Now don't compare a grounding to a boat sitting on top of a reef and slamming up and down on its keel from wave action as even a fixed keel boat would suffer serious damage. On the other hand we have seen boats get knocked down when sailed hard. It does not take much imagination to visualize an unlocked swing keel to jackknife into the keel trunk of a knocked down boat. The pivot bolt will likely handle the occurrence but not the keel trunk besides the complete loss of righting stability. I think the myth comes from boats that had a badly worn or defective keel trunk/pivot assembly that may have suffered some breakage when running aground and the locked keel is being blamed instead of faulty maintenance. My recommendation is that if you want to be safe make sure you lock that swing keel at all times. If you have rocky shores you would likely do not take a fixed keel vessel into shallow water and the same should apply to a swing keel vessel. The swing keel is designed to facilitate getting a boat on and off a trailer and not so that the boat could be sailed in shallow waters. I'm afraid that a breakaway pin would be like having no lock pin at all; to be effective and breakaway in a grounding would likely also break in a jackknifing. Prudence and good maintenance is the answer.
A quote from the Macgregor owners manual:
"If you are sailing in shallow water, where you can reasonably expect to hit bottom, install the lock bolt in the top keel trunk hole before lowering the keel. Then lower the keel until it comes to rest against the bolt. Since the lock bolt now does not pass through the keel, it will swing back if you hit bottom. However, if a severe knockdown is taken, bear in mind that the keel may swing back up against the hull and cause damage. Caution should be exercised wile sailing with the keel positioned in this manner."
"If you are sailing in shallow water, where you can reasonably expect to hit bottom, install the lock bolt in the top keel trunk hole before lowering the keel. Then lower the keel until it comes to rest against the bolt. Since the lock bolt now does not pass through the keel, it will swing back if you hit bottom. However, if a severe knockdown is taken, bear in mind that the keel may swing back up against the hull and cause damage. Caution should be exercised wile sailing with the keel positioned in this manner."
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Although I agree with much of what you said the keel trunk of my V-222 (and I've seen pictures of several others) was damaged in exactly this manor by a previous owner. The lock-down hole was essentially torn and made into a 3" slot.
Was that in one grounding or the end result of multiple groundings? In either case it seems that the keel trunk survived while I would sincerely doubt that the boat would survive a knockdown with the keel unlocked. When a grounding occurs at full speed I would not blame the lock down mechanism but the skipper. Here in Florida we are used to sail in skinny waters and the closer we get to the bottom the slower we go. I have sailed swing keel boats and I'm the first to admit that there circumstances when it is necessary to release the keel lock, but it should be done with full understanding of the prevalent conditions and what is at stake. I had a boat in which we drilled a second lock down hole to permit locking the keel half way down. It was mostly used to motor into shallow areas rather than sail as there was some loss of stability.
this may be reasonable practice in a shallow lake where the bottom comes up gradually, and then may get deeper gradually..... where the keel has gentle contact, and does not raise up and then slam back down as it clears the stump or rock....
there was no intent for the keel, the bolt, or the boat itself to take that kind of abuse....
I agree with Benny that in a mud or sand bottom, its unlikely for any structural damage to occur.... although, when motoring downriver with the current at a good clip, with the keel locked down, I hit a sandbar firmly, and bent the 3/8" stainless keel bolt.... and it was a bit difficult to remove from the holes, but due to the over-sized holes, which is by design, and with a bit of manipulation on the winch, it came out... so I replaced it with another one from the "bolt bag".... no damage was done to the trunk that required a repair... this is normal.
if I did a few of these high speed groundings, I would definitely need a repair... is there anyone who would expect any thing different?
having the keel bolt in the hole with the keel resting on it could have saved the bent bolt in this situation, but if I would have hit a rock or stump with the keel, and it raised over it, the drop would have bent the bolt and just as likely cut into the trunk going in the other direction......
so as I have said many times in many posts, the best solution to the keel bolt/trunk damage, is staying out of obstructed waters..... and there is no better way to engineer it, than the way it was engineered to begin with... once you build the lock bolt components so tough that they no longer fail, you will then be fixing the pivot bolt hole...
Nicely written Centerline. These forums are the best. You guys have helped me out a tome over the past few years. Lets keep these 25's sailing!!do a search of this site... there is a lot of information already here on the subject. about the pros and cons, breakaway lock bolts, and the reports of damage because of groundings....
but let me make a friendly yet very clear statement....
the question is not so much as to whether one should lock the keel down as it was designed to be, but more as to why one would be risking the boat sailing in shallow or obstructed waters... you have a swing keel boat which for several reasons can be raised intentionally, but there is no good excusable reason for it to be raised accidentally.... if the boat did NOT have a swing keel, you wouldnt expect ignorance/carelessness/stupidity to save you or the boat, so why would you even consider it just because the manufacture designed the boat so it trailers easily?... with that said, accidents do happen, and when they do you can feel lucky if you and the boat escapes harm, but you shouldnt ever expect to escape harm or damage just because you have the keel bolt out... in some cases it can do more harm by allowing the keel to slam back down after it raises over the obstruction....... if you know the water is obstructed, raise the keel or stay out of the area....
BUT... in clear open water people do unlock the keel for trim when under sail.... IN OPEN, UNOBSTRUCTED WATER..
it isnt the use or mis-use of the lock bolt that is the usual problem, but running the boat into an obstruction will always be a problem, and cannot be considered anything other than mis-use of the boat by the operator.... and ALL of us that has spent any time underway on our boat, has hit an obstruction at one time or another. its programmed into the learning curve
Ken B.
Cmdre - NETS
I have never locked mine down, as I use my keel to help trim the boat on different points of sail. I am always cranking it up or down to best suit the conditions. Where I sail, its mostly mud or sand and when I run into shallow water and the keel rubs the bottom, the boat starts slowing down and slowly stops. a quick couple of cranks up and I'm of again. I have expandable, rubber stoppers in the lock down holes in the trunk to keep the water out.
I sailed an M25 on a large shallow lake for many years. I never locked the keel down. I ran aground often, and even used the keel to stop the boat when sailing into the ramp. Never any damage to the keel, trunk or pivot bolt. The boat simply comes to a stop, without jarring or noise. I simply crank the keel up until I can sail over the shallow spot.
I now sail an M17 and feel even less likely to have a knockdown, than I did with the 25. If I used a large spinnaker, I would probably lock the keel.
I now sail an M17 and feel even less likely to have a knockdown, than I did with the 25. If I used a large spinnaker, I would probably lock the keel.
I sail the same waters as Cuscus, and do exactly the opposite - I ALWAYS lock it down. However, if you hit a rock or a log, expect some damage. For instance, broken keel cable is common in these situations....
I agree.... if the 600lb keel is hanging from the cable only, or worse, fully down and resting against the trunk, yes it will rise over the object, and as soon as it clears, you will have a 600lb deadweight dropping against whatever support it had before hitting the obstruction....
one never knows how deep the obstruction is, but if its fairly shallow, the keel will raise quite far to clear it, and so drop the same distance.... it wont take many of these before you realize fixing a damaged lock bolt hole is much cheaper and easier...
there are times that it makes sense to tempoarily remove the keel bolt, but the keel should always be secured except under those special circumstances...