LIPO BATTERIES
- Thread starter SVEN MARTINEZ
- Start date
$$$ for batteries and will require new chargers and such - while they have good points, may not be quite right for marine apps at this point.
Maine Sails Page at Compass Marine is my go to for these questions, as a lot has to do with what your goals are for the upgrade??
Maine Sails Page at Compass Marine is my go to for these questions, as a lot has to do with what your goals are for the upgrade??
LiPo (Lithium Polymer) batteries are dangerous. Improper charging can cause them to burn. I use them in R/C planes, and typically put them in nomex bags while charing. I think they are dangerous for a house bank.
It could be that technology has advanced in the last couple of years, but I think this is still true.
It could be that technology has advanced in the last couple of years, but I think this is still true.
Marine lipo cells use slightly modified chemistry to the ones used in RC planes, not entirely sure what they change but it does reduce the overcharge tendency to go "whooompf".
They also have the balance charge circuitry built in on some of them, so reduces problems even more, but does increase cost.
They also have the balance charge circuitry built in on some of them, so reduces problems even more, but does increase cost.
I'll try and find the article on the chemistry for you, it was referenced on one of the manufactures sites I believe.
If you are going with a Li-alternative, you need to buy Li-Iron (LiFePO 4). The reason is that Li-Iron are much more durable, survive about 10 time more discharge cycles, do not overheat, and do not catch fire when punctured. It does not have the energy density that competing Li-ion, but well worth the small sacrifice.
I'm going to be installing two-300 AH Relion batteries to replace four - 4DL Lifelines AGM's.
http://www.relionbattery.com/
LiFePO4 Technology designed for marine applications.
http://www.relionbattery.com/
LiFePO4 Technology designed for marine applications.
I did a search and only found one source. Price: $3,500. For reference, the RB100, 100Ah, Group 31 form factor, is $1,300, just about 10 times the cost of an equivalent, genuine deep-cycle flooded batt like a Crown 27DC115 (actually, the Crown is a bit smaller, at Group 27, and higher energy density, at 115Ah, but I happened to be looking at one, and found in in the Washington state area for about $130, so used it for the comparison).
A LOT -- you buy them by the AH. I got a boat show discount -- with a credit for recycling my Lifelines. After the dust cleared, they were over $3K a piece with shipping.
I have had 4 sets of Lifeline AGM's over the last 19 years. They have had decreasing lives -- despite treating them very carefully, not over discharging them, charging them fully, etc., etc. Something has changed with Lifeline.
The last set is toast after about a year. There is nothing that I haven't done to maintain them as the manufacturer recommends. Both of two banks which comprise my house set are essentially sulfated (or whatever).
If you use Maine Sail's recommendations, I'd be a poster child for treating them right. I called Lifeline four times. Maybe my leaving a message was the reason that they didn't call back? Anyway, life's too short to spend it chasing them for a refund. I don't want to have to continue to equalize the house bank once a month or so, and still have them fail in a year. So...
I know that it's VERY expensive, but ... These are the last batteries I hope of buy for another eight of ten years of sailing on our J/Boat.
I have had 4 sets of Lifeline AGM's over the last 19 years. They have had decreasing lives -- despite treating them very carefully, not over discharging them, charging them fully, etc., etc. Something has changed with Lifeline.
The last set is toast after about a year. There is nothing that I haven't done to maintain them as the manufacturer recommends. Both of two banks which comprise my house set are essentially sulfated (or whatever).
If you use Maine Sail's recommendations, I'd be a poster child for treating them right. I called Lifeline four times. Maybe my leaving a message was the reason that they didn't call back? Anyway, life's too short to spend it chasing them for a refund. I don't want to have to continue to equalize the house bank once a month or so, and still have them fail in a year. So...
I know that it's VERY expensive, but ... These are the last batteries I hope of buy for another eight of ten years of sailing on our J/Boat.
The reason I am researching Lifepo4 batteries is their ability to charge quickly and discharge to 80% SOC. On my C30 I have 12v refrigeration and forced air furnace and use 100-150 amp/day and I only have room for (1) 4D or (2) gr31 batteries. I have an Ample Power 107amp alternator which is way too big for LA batteries. They drop from bulk to acceptance almost immediately and quickly drop to about 25amp charging due to internal resistance. I have been using a Lifeline 4D which will take about 75 amps for and hour before dropping off. A LifePo battery should be able to take all I can give it which would greatly reduce the run time to recharge. My current Lifeline has about 6 years on it and is nearing its end of life.
I have a Mastervolt Combi - It's face rated at 200 Amps as a charger when on shore or generator power; however, in real life (after it gets to operating temps), it puts out about 130 Amps.
We have a Balmar 250 Amp alternator (plus a 50 Amp for the house bank) on the Yanmar engine. It's issue is the external regulator. I suspect in real life (at modest RPM's with a hot engine compartment), it probably puts out a similar 130 amps or more. We'll see how the "smart" regulator can be set-up. :^))).
If you're under way; and you're drawing 10 to 25 amps of power to keep all of your "essential" equipment running, you have to deduct that "ongoing" load from what the batteries will actually "see" pouring-into them from your charging source.
We have a Balmar 250 Amp alternator (plus a 50 Amp for the house bank) on the Yanmar engine. It's issue is the external regulator. I suspect in real life (at modest RPM's with a hot engine compartment), it probably puts out a similar 130 amps or more. We'll see how the "smart" regulator can be set-up. :^))).
If you're under way; and you're drawing 10 to 25 amps of power to keep all of your "essential" equipment running, you have to deduct that "ongoing" load from what the batteries will actually "see" pouring-into them from your charging source.
Did you mean an additional 50A alternator for the starting battery?
Yes. It doesn't really put-out 50 Amps in "real life". It was already on the Yanmar when I added the Balmar 250 Amp alternator. It's got an on-board regulator that treats the Optima Starting battery like a "normal" automotive one.
The Mastervolt Combi has two "take-offs" that actually charge the two house banks independently; and, then the two "take offs", one for the engine and the other for the generator start batteries are charged separately. Of course, that works on when the generator or shore power is connected.
We have relatively large freezer and refrigerator boxes, a PC, LED display, two independent chart plotter systems each with two displays, a full B&G H5000 system with a bunch of MFD's, etc., etc. If you add-up my wife and my Kindles, iPads, iPhones, and other little devices --- it all adds up pretty quickly.
My wife made it a condition of us sailing in Maine to have redundancy in our navigation systems ;^))). I've been in fog when one or the other went on the fritz. I don't know how people sailed in those waters with nothing but a compass, a good watch, and a little RDF (radio direction finder), and some charts on their knees? They were better men (and women) than me. :^)))).
All those "conveniences" take Amps and AH's.
Yes. It doesn't really put-out 50 Amps in "real life". It was already on the Yanmar when I added the Balmar 250 Amp alternator. It's got an on-board regulator that treats the Optima Starting battery like a "normal" automotive one.
The Mastervolt Combi has two "take-offs" that actually charge the two house banks independently; and, then the two "take offs", one for the engine and the other for the generator start batteries are charged separately. Of course, that works on when the generator or shore power is connected.
We have relatively large freezer and refrigerator boxes, a PC, LED display, two independent chart plotter systems each with two displays, a full B&G H5000 system with a bunch of MFD's, etc., etc. If you add-up my wife and my Kindles, iPads, iPhones, and other little devices --- it all adds up pretty quickly.
My wife made it a condition of us sailing in Maine to have redundancy in our navigation systems ;^))). I've been in fog when one or the other went on the fritz. I don't know how people sailed in those waters with nothing but a compass, a good watch, and a little RDF (radio direction finder), and some charts on their knees? They were better men (and women) than me. :^)))).
All those "conveniences" take Amps and AH's.
found it, and other actually
http://www.epectec.com/batteries/lithium-battery-technologies.html
Somebody had already noted the marine type, but the important part for me is the cell nominal and discharge voltages