I have a 22 oday 1972 and would like any advise available on running lines aft for single handed operation. ie. placement of turning blocks, deck organizers, clutches etc. Equipment and purchse store recomendation?Approx cost?Can the winches in the cock pit be utilized?Is an additional winch necessary? Also for the thru hull for the sink,what would be the best way to seal this up if I am not going to use it. Thanks.
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Josh
What I'm going to do...
You are talking about running your lines aft. I assume the only ones you want to run back are the halyards? Everything on mine already does... I've seen a number of people put it on the cabin top. The problem is that the 22 doesn't allow for placement of much up there. There's just no room to run the ropes back without rubbing something. My personal plan is to remove the cleats on the mast and replace them with a block. Then, I was going to put a turning block either straight port and starboard of the mast, or perhaps a bit back towards the one that is already there for the jib sheets. I have purchased double clutches, and am going to put one on each side in front of the winches. With all the hardware set up this way, I'll run one halyard through each block on the mast, send one port and one starboard, send them both back along with the jib sheets, and then run one through each clutch along with the jib sheets. This puts a halyard on each side of the cockpit, and allows me to utilize the existing winches. It also puts a rope clutch in for the jib sheets, something I wanted to do anyways. A nice side effect is symmetry of the lines. Any questions? I don't have any pictures because I haven't installed any of this...yet. Have the hardware, but haven't put them on yet. Any questions let me know. Josh
You are talking about running your lines aft. I assume the only ones you want to run back are the halyards? Everything on mine already does... I've seen a number of people put it on the cabin top. The problem is that the 22 doesn't allow for placement of much up there. There's just no room to run the ropes back without rubbing something. My personal plan is to remove the cleats on the mast and replace them with a block. Then, I was going to put a turning block either straight port and starboard of the mast, or perhaps a bit back towards the one that is already there for the jib sheets. I have purchased double clutches, and am going to put one on each side in front of the winches. With all the hardware set up this way, I'll run one halyard through each block on the mast, send one port and one starboard, send them both back along with the jib sheets, and then run one through each clutch along with the jib sheets. This puts a halyard on each side of the cockpit, and allows me to utilize the existing winches. It also puts a rope clutch in for the jib sheets, something I wanted to do anyways. A nice side effect is symmetry of the lines. Any questions? I don't have any pictures because I haven't installed any of this...yet. Have the hardware, but haven't put them on yet. Any questions let me know. Josh
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Paul Palmer
Lines Aft
David I posted photos on the photo forum showing how I did this on an OD 25. Paul Palmer
David I posted photos on the photo forum showing how I did this on an OD 25. Paul Palmer
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Rich
Same Old Stuff, Different O'Day
The response posted by Josh might work from an "ease of mounting" standpoint but having those extra lines running down from the mast presumably looking like some sort of barrier lifeline passing up across the cabintop to the deck does not not seem ergonomically wise for the sailor to go forward when needed without tripping on stress loaded lines (i.e., the halyards in those blocks). It also seems like just another thing for the genoa to get hung up on during tacks. Maybe I'm just not picturing it properly, but it seems pretty unorthodox the way I'm seeing it now. Now, I'm planning to do the same thing you are with my '75 O'Day 22. Like you, I'm still wondering what would be the best way to do this. Like Josh, I agree that the cabintop is a bit cramped and tight for this purpose but I've never seen a truly good way to do it on any other boat other than running it down the mast and along the cabin top to the cockpit. I'm planning to either attach a stainless boom bail on the mast just above the base of the mast or buy an aftermarket plate with attachment holes (that fits underneath the maststep) and then attach turning blocks on shackles to the new bail or plate. I would then also attach a double deck organizer on each side of the base of the mast on the cabintop (about 8-12" away from the mast). As the cabintop has a rather defined curve in that area, I'm probably going to make mounting wedges for beneath the deck organizers using Starboard (marine polyethylene) or teak. Those organizers
The response posted by Josh might work from an "ease of mounting" standpoint but having those extra lines running down from the mast presumably looking like some sort of barrier lifeline passing up across the cabintop to the deck does not not seem ergonomically wise for the sailor to go forward when needed without tripping on stress loaded lines (i.e., the halyards in those blocks). It also seems like just another thing for the genoa to get hung up on during tacks. Maybe I'm just not picturing it properly, but it seems pretty unorthodox the way I'm seeing it now. Now, I'm planning to do the same thing you are with my '75 O'Day 22. Like you, I'm still wondering what would be the best way to do this. Like Josh, I agree that the cabintop is a bit cramped and tight for this purpose but I've never seen a truly good way to do it on any other boat other than running it down the mast and along the cabin top to the cockpit. I'm planning to either attach a stainless boom bail on the mast just above the base of the mast or buy an aftermarket plate with attachment holes (that fits underneath the maststep) and then attach turning blocks on shackles to the new bail or plate. I would then also attach a double deck organizer on each side of the base of the mast on the cabintop (about 8-12" away from the mast). As the cabintop has a rather defined curve in that area, I'm probably going to make mounting wedges for beneath the deck organizers using Starboard (marine polyethylene) or teak. Those organizers
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Ed
Working Space on Cabintop
The 25 doesn't have much room on top either. I am getting around it by removing the handholds. (The holes are were filled before refinishing the deck/cabinhouse) After the turning blocks/clutches/winches are added to either side of the companionway, new handholds will be installed. A three loop handle will go nearest the companionway, and a single will go in origional alignment closest to the mast. Basically the boatyard is removing four of the middle loops where the handhold comes closest to the hatch runner to allow three lines led aft on each side.
The 25 doesn't have much room on top either. I am getting around it by removing the handholds. (The holes are were filled before refinishing the deck/cabinhouse) After the turning blocks/clutches/winches are added to either side of the companionway, new handholds will be installed. A three loop handle will go nearest the companionway, and a single will go in origional alignment closest to the mast. Basically the boatyard is removing four of the middle loops where the handhold comes closest to the hatch runner to allow three lines led aft on each side.
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Josh
Well crap...
I hadn't even thought about the lines being in the way when moving forward. Not that everything else isn't in the way already. As far as the jib goes though, I had planned to run them inside the lines for that so as to keep them from rubbing eachother or tangling. While Paul's pictures are great, they are just not possible on the cabin of the 22 without the lines rubbing. As you can see in his pictures, they rub past the rails for the sliding hatch, and this would just be even more exagerated on a 22. Ed may have the best idea, to remove the handholds. Then, replace new ones working around the cabin top and all the new equipment you just installed. My idea, while unorthodox is all that I could come up with that used the existing winches. The only place that the line would be in the way any more then any other line would be where it goes from the cabin top to the deck. I may have to rethink my ideas, because the fact that the lines whould need to be stepped over hadn't crossed my mind. The only other possiblity that I had come up with was to run one halyard each way along side the sliding hatch. Something like Paul has done in his pictures, except with only one line and a winch on each side. There is room perhaps for one line, but I think if you go with more they will just end up wearing through each other or binding up because of how cramped it is. My problem was I couldn't afford to place a winch on each side, and wanted to come up with a way to use the two existing on each side of the boat. Although if you don't want a winch to tighten the sails with, this might be perfect for you. Block at the base of the mast, a single block deck orginzier similar to what Paul's pictures show, and just a rope clutch or something on each side of the hatch. Remember, if you use a boomvang, you will want to take into concideration that third line. There's limited deck space, and not a whole lot of room to play with. Hopefully someone will respond with the perfect idea... Josh
I hadn't even thought about the lines being in the way when moving forward. Not that everything else isn't in the way already. As far as the jib goes though, I had planned to run them inside the lines for that so as to keep them from rubbing eachother or tangling. While Paul's pictures are great, they are just not possible on the cabin of the 22 without the lines rubbing. As you can see in his pictures, they rub past the rails for the sliding hatch, and this would just be even more exagerated on a 22. Ed may have the best idea, to remove the handholds. Then, replace new ones working around the cabin top and all the new equipment you just installed. My idea, while unorthodox is all that I could come up with that used the existing winches. The only place that the line would be in the way any more then any other line would be where it goes from the cabin top to the deck. I may have to rethink my ideas, because the fact that the lines whould need to be stepped over hadn't crossed my mind. The only other possiblity that I had come up with was to run one halyard each way along side the sliding hatch. Something like Paul has done in his pictures, except with only one line and a winch on each side. There is room perhaps for one line, but I think if you go with more they will just end up wearing through each other or binding up because of how cramped it is. My problem was I couldn't afford to place a winch on each side, and wanted to come up with a way to use the two existing on each side of the boat. Although if you don't want a winch to tighten the sails with, this might be perfect for you. Block at the base of the mast, a single block deck orginzier similar to what Paul's pictures show, and just a rope clutch or something on each side of the hatch. Remember, if you use a boomvang, you will want to take into concideration that third line. There's limited deck space, and not a whole lot of room to play with. Hopefully someone will respond with the perfect idea... Josh
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Rich
Handrail Reduction Sounds Best...
I really like the idea of removing original teak handrails (6 rungs), running all lines needed aft with mast plate, blocks, deck organizer(s), winch(es) and rope clutch(es) then replacing the handrails with smaller sections leaving room for the lines to pass freely. In fact, I've been really wanting to replace my old, original, worn, cracking teak rails with "Starboard" white poly rails but have been unable to find pre-made rails with 6 rungs--4 max is the best I could find. I even considered making them myself but can't find the "starboard" large enough and cheap enough to do it with good conscience. The no maintenance of the white ploy really appeals to me (the old rails need to be removed and rebedded anyway). Talk about a way to kill a few birds with the same stones. I'm going to put a triple deck organizer on each side of the mast, a #8 or #10 winch on either side of the companionway and triple rope clutch just in front of each of those winches. That way I can run main related lines on one side--halyard, vang and outhaul--and jib/spinnaker lines on the other side--jib/genoa halyard, spinnaker halyard and topping/pole lift.
I really like the idea of removing original teak handrails (6 rungs), running all lines needed aft with mast plate, blocks, deck organizer(s), winch(es) and rope clutch(es) then replacing the handrails with smaller sections leaving room for the lines to pass freely. In fact, I've been really wanting to replace my old, original, worn, cracking teak rails with "Starboard" white poly rails but have been unable to find pre-made rails with 6 rungs--4 max is the best I could find. I even considered making them myself but can't find the "starboard" large enough and cheap enough to do it with good conscience. The no maintenance of the white ploy really appeals to me (the old rails need to be removed and rebedded anyway). Talk about a way to kill a few birds with the same stones. I'm going to put a triple deck organizer on each side of the mast, a #8 or #10 winch on either side of the companionway and triple rope clutch just in front of each of those winches. That way I can run main related lines on one side--halyard, vang and outhaul--and jib/spinnaker lines on the other side--jib/genoa halyard, spinnaker halyard and topping/pole lift.
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Josh
If shortening the hand holds...
If you shorten the handholds down to say three, to accomidate the addition of all the equipment that Rich describes, how do you mount the equipment to the deck? I mean, if I was going to do something similar, what is inside the space between the cabin roof and the ceiling liner? To look at it on a 22, it appears to be about a one inch space. Is this cored with plywood or balsa? Perhaps a diffrent material? Something I'd like to know beforehand. Thanks, Josh
If you shorten the handholds down to say three, to accomidate the addition of all the equipment that Rich describes, how do you mount the equipment to the deck? I mean, if I was going to do something similar, what is inside the space between the cabin roof and the ceiling liner? To look at it on a 22, it appears to be about a one inch space. Is this cored with plywood or balsa? Perhaps a diffrent material? Something I'd like to know beforehand. Thanks, Josh
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Rich
Backing Up my Ideas...
Josh, my recommendation any time you add hardware to your boat--on deck, on cabintop, on transom or anywhere else for that matter--is to use backing plates if at all possible, regardless of solid fiberglass or cored fiberglass. I'm not an engineer or marine architect so you probably don't always need them but my philosophy is better safe than sorry. For my aft-led line project, I'm planning to use white poly (like "starboard") as my backing plates inside the cabin, up against the ceiling where the bolts come through for the new hardware. Those deck organizers, rope clutches and winches are going to be somewhat highly loaded, so I will definitely thru-bolt them and use backing plates underneath. As for the materials, "starboard" is expensive as hell so I'm planning to try using white poly from another source--local Wal-Mart 1/4" thick pre-made kitchen cutting boards are about 1/4 of the price as a comparable size piece of Starboard. I haven't tried cutting or machining the cheap cutting boards yet but I'm planning to experiment soon. If they can be machined similarly to wood with regular power tools, that's how I'm going to go. If not, it's going to be a toss up between true "starboard" and the more traditional teak blocks. You could probably get away with just big stainless fender washers but they don't impress me as being very professional looking. If the cutting board works, I'm planning to round over the edges with a router and slightly countersink a hole for a small stainless washer and cap ("acorn") nut for each bolt so that the nuts aren't visibly protruding so far from the ceiling. I'll let you know what happens when I try to cut the cutting boards....
Josh, my recommendation any time you add hardware to your boat--on deck, on cabintop, on transom or anywhere else for that matter--is to use backing plates if at all possible, regardless of solid fiberglass or cored fiberglass. I'm not an engineer or marine architect so you probably don't always need them but my philosophy is better safe than sorry. For my aft-led line project, I'm planning to use white poly (like "starboard") as my backing plates inside the cabin, up against the ceiling where the bolts come through for the new hardware. Those deck organizers, rope clutches and winches are going to be somewhat highly loaded, so I will definitely thru-bolt them and use backing plates underneath. As for the materials, "starboard" is expensive as hell so I'm planning to try using white poly from another source--local Wal-Mart 1/4" thick pre-made kitchen cutting boards are about 1/4 of the price as a comparable size piece of Starboard. I haven't tried cutting or machining the cheap cutting boards yet but I'm planning to experiment soon. If they can be machined similarly to wood with regular power tools, that's how I'm going to go. If not, it's going to be a toss up between true "starboard" and the more traditional teak blocks. You could probably get away with just big stainless fender washers but they don't impress me as being very professional looking. If the cutting board works, I'm planning to round over the edges with a router and slightly countersink a hole for a small stainless washer and cap ("acorn") nut for each bolt so that the nuts aren't visibly protruding so far from the ceiling. I'll let you know what happens when I try to cut the cutting boards....
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