Lightning Question

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Jan 26, 2007
308
Norsea 27 Cleveland
Yes, Bill, that's along the lines of what I was thinking. MS read my mind with his faraday cage comment (in response to my shielded cases comment). I'd like to see a spatio-temporal plot of potential in a situation like that. If it's changing fast enough, that would explain why gadgets that are completly isolated (disconnected, ie iPod and handhelds) would still see excessive currents and component failures. I know the ideas but not the specs. For example, anyone whose worked with computers (or apparently home appliance controls) knows that the static discharged from your fingers can instantly fry board mounted microchips. In that sense, I'm not sure that a lack of ground will help at all. In computer work the case should be grounded in order to discharge stray potentials before they have a chance to zap a chip when fat fingers close virtual circuits.

One element that has not been addressed here is current density. A direct hit that does not result in current flowing through one conductor may not experience current densities high enough to melt metal and burn anything in its way.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Remember that an EMP is the equivilant of the primary on a transformer and any conductor will be a secondary. Induced current is determined by ampere turns. If the primary current is for practical purposes infinite then the induced current in the secondary windings will be determined by the quality of the magnetic coupling. The cage simply shorts the induced current to ground.
 
Jan 26, 2007
308
Norsea 27 Cleveland
Lightning is a direct current phenomenon, no? Instead of being an inductive current, as in a transformer or capacitor, it's a direct current, as when a transformer/capacitor is blown to a short (as opposed to being blown apart and open).
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Lightning is a direct current phenomenon, no? Instead of being an inductive current, as in a transformer or capacitor, it's a direct current, as when a transformer/capacitor is blown to a short (as opposed to being blown apart and open).
The spark coil in a car is fed direct current. The speed with which the lines of magnetic force cut the turns of the conductor determine the voltage produced and the voltage determines the current. You can get a nasty shock from a small high voltage transformer or a large inductive choke with a single "D" cell and holding the bare wires to the battery. When you break the circuit the field collapses and induces a current in the windings.
 
Jan 26, 2007
308
Norsea 27 Cleveland
Ok, now I've got you. DC is really 'AC' if you're pulsing it (at least transiently). Good point and on target, however "The cage simply shorts the induced current to ground." still seems fuzzy to me. That's not how I'd describe a faraday cage. A ground cage is at a single potential and therefore conducts no current at all. It's the field that does not penetrate, regardless of any discussion of currents. No field in the cage, no induced currents in the cage, no noise in your sensitive experiments (or in theory, damage to your electronic instruments during a lightning strike).
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
Faraday cages do not shield from magnetic fields

Unless the cage is iron, the magnetic field will still induce a current inside the cage. This is why aluminum foils, copper cases, aluminum stoves, etc do not protect your equipment. The magnetic field goes right through. Try putting a compass inside your cage. It will still read north. If you have a changing magnetic field (aka a lightning strike) then, by law, all conducting materials will have to have an induced charge. The trick is to not have much capacitance in the device or have the device protected by internal capacitors (on the circuit board).

The charge density from my hypothesis on MS situation is directly related to the total capacitance in each circuit that sees the common ground. So the mast head light probably did not see much current flow as light bulbs and wires don't have much capacitance. Electronic equipment is loaded with capacitors in their power circuits so they would see relatively larger discharges. Motors would see currents but since they have lots of windings (coils of wire) they experience a choking of the current due to the magnetic field that builds up upon discharge (back EMF).

I've always considered putting a choke on my main keel ground. This limits the amount of current that can spike through the ground. Unfortunately it also limits the lightening handling currents. Now that I understand to dump the lightening overboard and not bring it into the cabin a choke sounds more plausible. It would allow ground current to flow but not spikes which would now be handled by the lightening circuits.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Re: Faraday cages do not shield from magnetic fields

Bill, A Faraday cage will shield equipment inside from radio frequency electro-magnetic radiation. It will not shield anything from a static magnetic field. We shipped magnetrons in sheet steel lined wooden crates and they were moved by air from the depot to the stations. As you know the earliest transmitters were spark generators that produced broad spectrum RF output The receivers were also quite primitive. This is why radio operators on ships were called "sparky". The transmissions were international morse code and the number of stations was very limited.
Lightning produces broad spectrum RF emissions and can be detected at great distance with an AM receiver. Today such emissions are called radio frequency interference. Mister Faraday discovered that a continous conductive cage would shield his equipment from RFI so that he could conduct his developement work in an electrically quiet atmosphere.
 
Jan 26, 2007
308
Norsea 27 Cleveland
Conductive materials alter fields in space in a way that non-conductive materials do not. You don't need current flow to have an electric field.
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
Totally agree Ross

It will shield from ELECTRO-magnetic radiation. It will not shield from any kind of magnetism unless the box is made of a ferromagnetic material. Take your compass and put it in your cage. Bring another magnet near it that is outside the cage. The compass will react to the magnet. In fact it will react to a non-magnetized piece of iron. It will also react to a current carrying wire that is outside the cage which, I believe, is my point.

A faraday cage only shield from E fields not H fields. Current produce magnetic fields and if the current varies the H field varies and produces induced currents in everything not inside an iron box.
 
Jan 26, 2007
308
Norsea 27 Cleveland
I'll have to think on that one Bill. E & H fields are intimately linked, at least in the mathematical treatment of them. I guess I have been talking from my own understanding and experience with faraday cages. From a fields point of view, a faraday cage works becuase the field outside does not penetrate inside the cage. Spurious fields from any noise source does not reach delicate instrumentation (in my case it was electrophysiology rigs). In the practical use of faraday cages (or most activities I would guess) one doesn't encounter moving magnetic fields (as from a permenant magnetic that is moved) so much as EMF coming from any number of sources.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
It will shield from ELECTRO-magnetic radiation. It will not shield from any kind of magnetism unless the box is made of a ferromagnetic material. Take your compass and put it in your cage. Bring another magnet near it that is outside the cage. The compass will react to the magnet. In fact it will react to a non-magnetized piece of iron. It will also react to a current carrying wire that is outside the cage which, I believe, is my point.

A faraday cage only shield from E fields not H fields. Current produce magnetic fields and if the current varies the H field varies and produces induced currents in everything not inside an iron box.
The electro-magnetic pulse is what causes the damage to electronical devises. The amplitude of the induced voltage is proportional the the strength of the magnetic field and the speed that it moves relative to the conductor. Swinging a copper jump rope in the earth's magnetic field will induce an AC current the faster it swings the greater the current and the alternating frequency. It will not be large.
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,550
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
Bill, you could be correct about the capacitance and inductance theory..

But there is my take on things.

Lightning is a transient event.

When we protect electronics from transient currents, one of the methods used is to INCREASE the capacitance on circuit nodes. Capacitance will limit voltage transients caused by current transients. For example, if I inject some amount of transient current into a circuit node (such as the DC input), it will cause a voltage transient depending on the impedance. If the impedance is high, the voltage transient on the node can then breakdown semiconductor devices causing damage. However, if the capacitance on the node is increased, the voltage transient is reduced - which is a good thing if you don't want damage. You generally cant just add capacitance to any node as this will affect the way the rest of the circuit works - but additional capacitance is a good thing from a circuit lightning protection standpoint.

Also, if I charge up a capacitor - it doesn't just arbitrarily discharge.. It will simply remain charged until some impedance discharges it. My opinion is that any sort of capacitance on a boat is going to be BETTER for reducing lightning damage as capacitance will reduce voltage transient amplitudes.

Regarding the inductor or choke between the mast mast and the keel (if i understand the idea correctly) - I think this is the wrong thing to do.

While a capacitor will limit voltage from a current transient, an inductor will do just the opposite - it will create voltage transients from a current transient (v = L * rate of current change).

Not considering electronics, what lightning protection on a a boat is trying to do is prevent side flashing inside the boat. The heat generated by an ionized path is huge compared to the heat generated by the same current in for example a 4 gauge wire. Ionized current going through a fiber glass hull - also obviously not a good idea.

So what will happen if you have an inductor between the mast and the keel? If the mast receives a strike, you now have a big transient current in the mast. When this current "goes through" the inductor between the mast and the keel, a large transient voltage is developed at the mast. This is a bad thing as the transient voltage on the mast is possibly going to arc using ionized air over to the nearest water surface - ie, generate a damaging side flash.

I think what is a much better idea is to minimize the inductance between the mast and the keel as this also minimizes the chance for a side flash. Note that this only effective in salt water as the keel also needs to look like a low impedance path to discharge in the water - which is apparently sort of true if the keel is large enough and the water salty enough. If the keel doesnt look like a low impedance (such as in fresh water), you can still get a large voltage transient on the mast - and the possibility of an ionized air side flash.

Another point about inductance - you will hear about attempts to protect a boat by just attaching a wire to a shroud or chainplate. This also is likely not adequate because the shroud forms a fairly large inductor back to the mast. As discussed, the inductor will allow large transient voltages due to transient currents. So trying to "ground" at a chain plate could still allow the mast voltage to get very high - and then side flash - which of course is bad.

I also just don't see any benefit to a isolated / insulated mast from lightning. Electrolysis is another separate issue... but I don't think it makes much difference to lightning. However, I don't think an insulate mast hurts anything and that a spark gap can be used in the transfer of energy to ground.
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,550
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
Yup.. a little confusing as there are a few threads.. but I was reference to post 40 and 46 in this thread.
 
Jan 26, 2007
308
Norsea 27 Cleveland
Yup.. a little confusing as there are a few threads.. but I was reference to post 40 and 46 in this thread.
I read #46 and couldn't put my finger on why it didn't sound correct. I'll have to reread #40 later. Induced current doesn't depend on capacitance as others have mentioned in this thread. It really doesn't depend (as in rely on) the number of windings either. Ross' jump rope is exactly correct with the extension that it doesn't matter if you move the conductor through a magnetic field or you move a time varying magnetic field across the conductor. As a practical matter, as I mention above, strong magnetic fields are not nearly as prevalent and therefore problematic for electronic circuits as are EM fields. Spurious fields that are blocked by faraday cages have an E component and an H component and the cage blocks both. That's my understanding of the situation. [Edit: Let me add that I have studied electric fields and that is the experience from which I am speaking. A faraday cage works because fields do not exist inside of particular charge geometries such as the equipotential (ie ground) cage that is called a faraday cage.]
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
I disagree Walt

For the following reason:
You stated that "v = L * rate of current change" when it is actually
Change of voltage over time = L * rate of change in current over time or more mathematically
dv/dt = L * dI/dt

What I get from that is given a dV/dt (the lightning bolt) a circuit with more L will have to have less dI/dt which is what I've been saying.

Discharge the lightning over the side not down the mast support to the keel. Keep it out of the salon. Put a large inductor (L) between the mast and keel to "discourage" the electrons from traveling that way and "encourage" them to ground on the water surface AND give them a low impedance path to do it. The choke (L) is just a way of increasing the impedance of that part of the circuit. Remember impedance has both magnetic (L) and capacitive (C) components. And yes, there is probably a frequency of lightning return stroke that would be resonate with my inductor but that is just an engineering issue to choose an inductor that is resonant with my boat capacitance "well outside" the expected (someone quoted 30MHz and below for lightning) frequency.

Back to surface charge. The situation as I see it is, the keel is below a charged (induced) surface and the mast is above it. The lightning wants to ground out on the water surface not below it. The keel then is actually at a (if sky is + and water surface is -) higher potential than the water surface. This is only true in salt water BTW, fresh water is a totally different situation.

As for capacitance increasing your protection of electronic equipment, in MS’s situation, IMHO, the boat and all the circuits that are grounded to a common ground by some means are a capacitor. When the lightning strikes the surface the induced charge is neutralized and you are left with a “charged up” boat. Since it has a lower potential to discharge into and no reason to stay charged (induced E field is gone) it does so. Your power supply filters on your electrical equipment were participating in the event and dutifully discharge (the wrong way BTW) to ground. This causes their other plate to also discharge into your equipment and fry it. So yes normally having capacitance to absorb spikes is good but that is not what is happening here. You are storing charge then discharging it not filtering out spikes. BTW, the caps in power supplies only filter certain frequencies of spikes. Which is why you normally have two filter caps, a bigin and a littlin to filter high and low freq spikes. You really don’t need that much capacitance to do it and just having more is not always better at filtering.
 
Jan 26, 2007
308
Norsea 27 Cleveland
Change of voltage over time = L * rate of change in current over time or more mathematically
dv/dt = L * dI/dt
Bill -

v = L (dI/dt) for an inductor

(1/C) dv/dt = I for a capacitor

v = I R for a resistor

Those are the basic DC circuit equations. Is there something you could add to clarify your equation?

Also, seat of the pants AC analysis, for a given change in field, a higher inductance means a lower current at a given voltage. Inductance and capacitance are loosely comparable to resistance. They're all lumped together under the term reactance.
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,550
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
dv/dt = L * dI/dt

What I get from that is given a dV/dt (the lightning bolt) a circuit with more L will have to have less dI/dt which is what I've been saying.
As I see it - you have no control on dI/dT (unless you are Zues). That is the characteristics of the lightning strike - charge (I) comes down from the sky at some rate (dT). What you are attempting to do then is to minimize delta voltage. If you can minimize the voltage developed across your "system" or voltage transients internal to the system, you "might" be able to keep things like side flashing from occurring, capacitive coupling of energy, even damage to electronics.

Regarding taking charge from the mast - around the boat - to the water surface, I completely agree. I don't remember where but some reference I read actually said that if a keel is involved in grounding a salt water strike, the charge is still "eventually" dissipated at the water surface - only it had to go through the keel - through the water bulk - then to the water surface.

So if you have a method to get from the mast to the water surface (and this is fairly solidly covered by patents at the moment), then putting the inductor in the path of the keel maybe doesn't hurt anything. What I believe is the current thinking is that that the "more paths to ground the better". So having a good solid keel path plus some paths "around" the boat probably is still a good idea.

Hmm.. charged up boat... The water surface will become charged as there is a path for electrons to be driven into the water bulk. If the boat is insulated from water, the boat will experience electric fields and those effects - but wont charge like the water surface does as there is no conductive path to the water bulk. If the boat was conductive to the water bulk, it would charge the same way water surface does. Ill have to ponder this - but Id still be likely to keep the inductance from the mast to keel as low as possible.
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
Modeling lightning

In my thinking of lightning I'm making the following simplifications to the situation:
a) The lightning current in air is acting like a long straight wire with no insulation. In/on the boat all bets are off
b) My boat is attached to what amounts to an infinite capacitor
c) The induced static electrical charge is a very thin (<<1 ft) sheet at the water surface.

The E field for a lightning bolt looks like horizontal lines of equal potential. The H field looks like sets of concentric circles centered on the lightning bolt. Which would be in this case horizontal circles since the lightning bolt is vertical. Since my boat is in the initial E-field it has a masthead that is at some "more positive" potential, the waterline is at the "most negative" potential and the keel is at some "more positive than the water surface but less than the masthead" potential. No current flows though because the whole boat and water surrounding it are in the same back to back E field.
When the current begins to flow it is primarily in the vertical direction. I want to encourage that and try and discourage horizontal currents (side flashes).

Anybody disagree with me yet?
 
Jan 26, 2007
308
Norsea 27 Cleveland
I think I sat too long on an edit on my last - got caught up in a work conversation. Gotta run now. I'll check back tonight.
 
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