Light craft in a chop

[Nicky17000]

Hello,
I would like some advice on how to improve the handling of our Hunter23.5 when sailing upwind in a rather steep chop. I have a 95% moderate weather jib (custom designed by Doyle sails) which helped a lot, and with the reefed main pulls well with no excessive heeling.
The main problem is(and I think it is common to many lightweight boats with high freeboard) that in a chop, the bow tends to be blown off the wind. This makes going upwind tiring and inefficient. This is not exactly lee helm becouse in better conditions she is well balanced and behaves well. I tried with some more mast rake but did not help. I think the problem is also related to the fact that the keel would be moving back and forth with the movement of the boat on the waves. Perhaps I'm asking too much from her
Thanks
Best Regards

 

[BobM]

I had the same problem in my prior boat, a Lancer 25, which I took out one day into choppy waters with the wind blowing right down the channel I was coming from. Every time I tried to tack either the wind or a wave would confound it. I had a lot of difficulty and eventually resorted to wearing instead of tacking. To be frank, my advice would be to fire up the outboard an motor sail until you get out of the situation and then enjoy the sail back. However the sail back might not be as comfortable either as the chop will be a following sea. How big was the chop? Mine was about 2 feet, but frequent and my boat was about 3500 lbs and drew 3 feet. The headsail on her was a jib, and I think she definitely needed more sail in most situations, but she was rigged with a small headsail and a large main.

I hope Don has some better advice.

BobM

 

[Joe]

sailing upwind in choppy conditions

Trim the rig for maximum power... slide the jib leads forward a few inches and ease the sheets a bit... The idea is to keep the wind attached as the rig bounces around going over the short waves. Flat sails are not preferred in this situation. Use some vang to keep the boom stable. Set the mainsheet for some twist up top, but let out the outhaul to keep the lower part of the main powered up. Try keeping the boat as flat as you can without flattening the sails... Avoid reefing the main unless you absolutely must, that's a depowering adjustment.. Instead play the traveller to keep the boat flat, in gusts you can spill some air with the mainsheet. Also, place your crew close together on the windward side, have them sit on the rail, if possible and be able to shift backward a bit if needed. For example, if you have three crew, put the helmsman in the middle, sitting on the coaming, using the tiller extension so he can see the oncoming waves. Place one crew in the aft position, manning the traveller and mainsheet, also on the rail. The jib trimmer stays forward to allow moving about the cockpit when necessary.

Steering technique is very important. Head up into the approaching wave, trying to knife through it rather than let it slap the side of the bow. Bear off on the crest to build speed down the backside and keep the sails filled. In long waves you would steer a slow S-shaped course. In choppy seas, you steer a more zig zag course using quicker rudder action because the waves are so much closer together. Letting the mainsheet out a bit on the down side will help keep the speed up, and allow you to trim in a bit as you turn into the next wave.....

Lots of work, huh? Or I guess you could just turn on the motor.. but.. this is a sailing forum. Beating into a choppy sea is difficult to master, but you sound like you're up to the challenge..... Have a blast.

 

[sailingdog]

This is often a problem in multihulls, which have relatively low inertia, not having a massive keel. If the wind is strong enough, the sails can power the boat through the chop. However, if the winds are very light, it can be a real problem.

 

[BobM]

Mal,

I think you hit the nail on the head. Sailing into two foot chop with a high frequency (as I recall about 10 feet apart), in my case anyway, I could barely get enough speed up to tack resulting in a slow tack during which a wave would invariably hit the nose knocking me back on my original course. I agree that, lacking the speed, the boat felt like it didn't have the mass to shoulder the waves. I doubt it would have been a problem in a 27-30 footer which weights 2-3X as much.

Joe,

Joe, what you said makes a lot of sense. You are saying maximize boat speed power up the sails with big bellies (loosening the outhaul and cunningham), but when you say put twist in the main up top am I correct in saying that you mean to shifting the traveler to windward? If so, you'd certainly want to keep a hand on the mainsheet and, as you stated, sheet the vang in a bit to keep the boom from bouncing as you pass over the waves.

Not usually much crew on board my boat, but I imagine a little more weight, especially forward, might help in those conditions. If you have a water tank (especially if its under the vee berth) filling it might help on a small boat if conditions are rough. On my 25, the tank was under the cockpit, but filling the 15 gallon tank would be the equivalent of about 130lbs (the size of small crewperson), or about 4% more mass for a 3500 lb boat with 1200 lbs of shallow ballast.

 

[Nicky17000]

Hi everyone,
All your advice is valid yet what we are talking about is very subjective to an endless list of variables. I did not mention that the situation I was talking about is that the chops are about 3feet high and very frequent, about half the boatlength. The wind in the force four region.
Our boat does not have a taveller and the jib sheet fairleads are fixed. The jib was designed with this in consideration and if I slightly ease the jibsheet, it twists the upper 3rd. so depowers the upper part and helps reduce heeling. Since there is no traveller, I like to keep the vang tight in most situations. The mainsheet has a lot of camber and I would have preferred it a bit flatter but with some mast bend, it sets well without creases. Since we bought the boat 2nd hand, I don't know if it was designed like that or it has stretched. Normally in such a situation I ease a bit the mainsheet and bear off a little to gain some drive and if the weather condition seems to deteriorate I drop down the jib and start the outboard. If I am with my wife and children, I send the children down in the cabin for safety, and to add some weight in front.

 

[sailingdog]

Keeping the vang tight will generally flatten the main, depowering it, which will make dealing with the chop harder.

 

[Joe]

BobM....... not sure why you want more weight forward... my comment was to place the crew so you could move them AFT... you're trying to get the boat over the chop not plow through it. You need to be very active when steering.... trying to zig zag through the crests and troughs... pointy end punching thru the crest, then up, over and falling off to keep speed up. You don't need to pull the traveller to windward to twist off the top of the main. I prefer to set the mainsheet and play the traveller as I head up and fall off.... spilling the main only if hit by a big gust.

As far as tacking in these conditions... without the momentum of a heavier boat you must initiate the turn quickly and get the jib backwinding to help you finish the manueuver.

Nicky17000... without adjustable jib leads or a traveller, you must concentrate on steering technique and working the mainsheet as you zigzag over the crests. Stay with it.

There are many publications on sailing and racing small, lightweight dinghies and catamarans. Go to the book department at your local chandlery, grab a few, sit down and scan the indexes for sailing in waves or chop.....You'll find lots of good ideas.

 

[Alan]

Nicky

What Joe is telling you is absolutely correct.
Your comment "...the jib sheet fairleads are fixed. The jib was designed with this in consideration and if I slightly ease the jibsheet, it twists the upper 3rd". This is complete bunk. Whoever told you this is totally wrong. Your boat may not have been built with many of the sail controls that you need to have but that doesn't mean that you can't add them. Smaller boats need these controls even more than bigger ones for obvious reasons.
I would make it my business to add the needed controls that you are missing. Then go sail your boat and see what a difference it makes.

Aside from the sail controls you also need to learn to 'drive' the waves. Steering is the single most difficult part of sailing. Follow Joe's advice for driving through waves. It takes vigilance and practice but after you conquer it you'll see just how much faster the boat will be and better a helmsman you are.

 

[Don Guillette]

Nicky17000: My answers to almost all questions on the sail trim forum have to be general in nature because I am not an expert on all the sail boats in the world - no one is. What I use for my discussions is a Hunter or Catalina 30' to 35'.

To sail through 2' to 3' chop in winds around 12 to 25 knots requires all the power your sails can muster. A reefed main and a 95% jib is not the answer.

Instead of dealing with the lancer25 lets take some of the suggestions and break them down. First of all ONE sail trim control for the main or jib ain't going to solve the problem no more than adjusting of of 4 jets on your car engine will improve your performance. You need to adjust ALL of them to obtain peak performance.

MAST RAKE - when you rake the mast the boat thinks you have picked up the mast and moved it aft. The end results is increasing weather helm.

EASE JIB SHEET - You are increasing the draft depth. Draft depth powers up the sail but there is a point where too much depth is counter productive.

APPLY BOOM VANG - You are changing two element when you apply vang. You are decreasing twist, which is a good thing as power is not being spilled off of the top of the sail but you are also moving the draft position forward, which is not necessarily agood thing especially if you goo too far forward.

TWIST OFF THE TOP OF THE MAIN - Your spilling power from the top of the sail.

CREW POSITION - The best position for the crew in this situation would be windward/forward.

FAIRLEAD FORWARD - When you move the fairlead forward you are powering up the jib by making the top of the sail full (closed) and the bottom round and powerful.

Here is the bottom line. There is a specific sail trim adjustment for EACH SAIL TRIM CONTRO on the main and jib for EACH POINY OF SAIL AND WIND CONDITION. Unless you get the settings right you will never obtain 100% efficiency. I can't tell you the number of times I've seen skippers make a correct sail trim adjustment for their main and jib and then proceed to make another wrong one that cancels out the first one. It is like slamming your stick shift sports car into second gear and flooring it and then putting on the emergancy brake!!

 

[Nicky17000]

Hi Don and all the others,
Big thanks for all the feedback. Since the Hunter 23.5 waterballast is a bit tender, we have to reef early which is a trade-off for power. What I don't like about the main is that it has a single reef situated where there is normally a second reef. I was considering adding another reef line between it and the boom; it shouldn't be a big expense.
Best Regards

 

[Don Guillette]

Nicky: This is just my personal opinion, which may not be worth anything. With a small jib and a second reef in your mainsail you really have a sail power problem. If it were me I would not invest in a second reef on your boat. If I was on your boat and in a situation where I had to throw in a second reef I'd pack the sails in and start the engine.

In the few situations where I have had to reef my first thought is how am I going to safely get through this situation and get this sucker back to the dock in one piece. Sailing out of it may not be an option. I was always trying to think a couple of steps ahead of the situation. If I thought things were going to get worse I might go right past reef and furl it all up and start the engine.

I learned my lesson many years ago in a situation off Huntington Beach, Ca on a Catalina25. I got caught in waves coming in and waves coming off the beach. I started the engine and it swamped so I was stuck and had to sail out of it. The wind was building and my rear end was puckering big time. My goal was to reach the nearest oil island, which was a small blip on the horizon. Slowly the island got bigger and bigger and I was very happy to get in the lee of that island and get the sails furled and under control and the engine started. One thing i always liked about a sail boat is the two alternate sources of power and i'm not afraid to use either and especially the engine.

 

[Nicky17000]

Hi Don,
Thanks for your detailed explanation; I can assure you that your opinion is worth quite something. I think I did not explain well what I meant by adding another reef.
From my inexperienced opinion, I think that as you said, when my mainsail is reefed, it is too small. What I wanted to say is; if I put a new reef lower on the sail, I will have a bigger reefed main. Our boat is rather flat bottomed and does not like to be driven on her side.
Another thing that I noticed is that when I'm motoring, it's convenient to have some sail up becouse (unless we are going dead downwind) it will dampen the roll.
The boat does not have a backstay so I think that gives more importance to proper vang control.

 

[RichH]

Re: sailing upwind in choppy conditions

Joe and Alan are spot on, especially with the "S-turn" steering technique.

Beating satisfactorily into oncoming steep waves or chop comes from well practiced technique. Without the S-turn the boat will either plunge its bow into the trough and into the face of of the oncoming wave or have its bow pushed to the side --- all slowing the boat. Without turning and bearing off down the backside of the wave the lightweight boat may even become 'airborne' at the top of the wave and then very deeply plunge into the face of the oncoming wave. The S-turn reduces a lot of needless acceleration/deceleration cycles.

Due to the pitching and rolling, accelerating/decelerating, sail trim and with a powered-up shape simply becomes an 'eyeball' average. The S-turn is a very important boat handling technique if you want to beat well into steep chop.