Lift Pump Malfunction

Status
Not open for further replies.
c130king

c130king

.
Mar 22, 2009
360
Catalina 310 Gulfport Small Craft Harbor, MS
All,

Last evening on the way out of the harbor the motor died after about 5 minutes of running. Quickly got the genoa unfurled and sailed back to one of the T-heads on the end of one of the marinas piers.

During the initial investigation the motor would run for about 10-15 seconds then die. If we pumped the manual bleed pump on the primary fuel filter (while running) the motor would continue to run. But once we stopped the motor would soon die out.

We started trouble-shooting the lift pump and could not get it to function. Good electrical continuity. We tried jumping it to another power source and that didn't work. So that is our starting point today. We have removed it and I am going to try and find a new one.

Anyone know a source for one of these?

By the way...I changed out the fuel filters yesterday morning and that all went fine. Bled all the air out of the system so that doesn't seem to be the problem.

Anyone ever had this happen before? Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Jim
 
I

iSailor

.
Oct 17, 2011
221
Catalina 310 USA
do a search on here. At the advice from Paul, I got the NAPA pump ($57) and it fit perfectly with the OEM mounting holes and hose connections.
 
Witzend

Witzend

.
Dec 25, 2008
1,580
catalina 310 Elk River
She will gravity feed above 3/4 of a tank. I know you indicated that you applyed a separate 12v supply, when you did, did you hear any clicking coming from the pump?
 
c130king

c130king

.
Mar 22, 2009
360
Catalina 310 Gulfport Small Craft Harbor, MS
Sorry for the late follow-up. Been away for a few days.

Got the new pump at NAPA (Thanks iSailor for that tip). It was $57.77. Used the old fuel connector pieces.

However, once we installed it we still didn't get it to work. Started examining the books and discovered that the pump won't kick on unless there is sufficient oil pressure. After examining the oil pressure sender (proper term???) we found a loose connection. This is on the port side near the oil filter. Tightened it up and everything worked fine.

Engine has to be running to get oil pressure so it seems the lift pump only works when engine is running.

During this I came to the realization that I haven't heard the oil pressure warning horn in a long time...never realized or thought about it. Have to trouble shoot that next.

We took the old pump and connected it to a 12-volt car battery and it didn't work so that is why we thought it was bad.

But now the motor starts and runs just fine.

But then later that day my transmission cable came un-done...but that is for another thread.

Cheers,
Jim
 
Witzend

Witzend

.
Dec 25, 2008
1,580
catalina 310 Elk River
BTW, by turning the key to the spring loaded position and holding it there, the lift pump should run. I will make a click sound.
Your buzzer should sound when the engine is not running and the key is on.
 
c130king

c130king

.
Mar 22, 2009
360
Catalina 310 Gulfport Small Craft Harbor, MS
Should...but doesn't. That we will be investigating tomorrow.

Cheers,
Jim
 
Witzend

Witzend

.
Dec 25, 2008
1,580
catalina 310 Elk River
The buzzer gets it's ground from the +12 side of the lift pump. Yep that is right the +12 side. When the key is turned to the on position the lift pump is not running. The internal windings of the motor in the pump have a low enough resistance to pull the ground down thus sounding the buzzer. I would be checking the connections from the buzz to the lift pump. The shovel connector at the pump is usually the problem, but you have obviously been there, but check the crimp on the shovel connector anyway.
 
c130king

c130king

.
Mar 22, 2009
360
Catalina 310 Gulfport Small Craft Harbor, MS
Witzend,

Yes, we replaced the lift pump. And replaced the shovel connectors. The buzzer/horn works...barely...light scratchy noise. And we did get the water temp overheat light to work by grounding out the temp sender. But we couldn't get the oil pressure light to work.

Going to try and replace the buzzer/horn and oil pressure light and see what that does for me.

Any thoughts on where to get buzzer and light? Catalina Direct?

And, we have looked at many things related to the lift pump and it does not come on when the key is turned to the momentary position for the glow plugs. But the motor always starts almost immediately.

Cheers,
Jim
 
JK_Boston_Catalina310

JK_Boston_Catalina310

.
Nov 18, 2010
2,441
Catalina 310 Hingham, MA
I would check the oil pressure sender first. It is located pretty low on the engine and the connections are exposed and week. Ours was loose and eventually broke off.

On the buzzer and light, I would check all the connections before I replace them. And I would guess either Catalina Direct or a Westerbeke dealer.

On the fuel lift pump, I would look into that more. Otherwise you might not be able to bleed your fuel lines after you replace filters. Also, I believe that the engine can start without the fuel lift pump for the first 1/4 of the tank but then it needs the pump. How much fuel do you have?
 
c130king

c130king

.
Mar 22, 2009
360
Catalina 310 Gulfport Small Craft Harbor, MS
JK_Boston_Catalina310 said:
I would check the oil pressure sender first. It is located pretty low on the engine and the connections are exposed and week. Ours was loose and eventually broke off.

On the buzzer and light, I would check all the connections before I replace them. And I would guess either Catalina Direct or a Westerbeke dealer.

On the fuel lift pump, I would look into that more. Otherwise you might not be able to bleed your fuel lines after you replace filters. Also, I believe that the engine can start without the fuel lift pump for the first 1/4 of the tank but then it needs the pump. How much fuel do you have?
Click to expand
We did check the oil pressure sender and that was why the lift pump wasn't working. Loose connections...now tightened.

Connections to the buzzer and light were checked and looked ok. Buzzer works VERY weakly (scratchy sound) for the water temp and the light comes on. For oil pressure we pretty much got nothing. But will try to replace the buzzer and light just to see what that does...might get lucky.

I do not use the lift pump to bleed the lines. I use the manual pump on the primary fuel filter. Have changed filters 3 times now and the manual pump works very easily. I rarely have less than 1/2 tank. I do use my boat a lot...4+ times per week all year long...and typically refuel when the gauge gets to 1/2 tank. Engine will not run for very long with the lift pump not working with fuel at 1/2 to 3/4 of a tank...haven't tried less than that. If I keep manually pumping the primary fuel pump the engine will keep running...but obviously that is not a very good solution.

...thus my lift pump is my "secondary" oil pressure indicator. If for some reason I lose oil pressure and the horn/light at the helm don't work eventually the motor will shut down due to fuel lift pump not working.

...but I don't want to depend on that. Wan't to get the buzzer/light working.

Cheers,
Jim
 
Stu Jackson

Stu Jackson

.
Feb 26, 2004
22,770
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
c130king said:
I do not use the lift pump to bleed the lines. I use the manual pump on the primary fuel filter. Have changed filters 3 times now and the manual pump works very easily.
Click to expand
Jim, I did that once and my fingers still hurt! :) And that was in 1999. I figured it's a lot easier to turn the pump on and let it do all the work. I installed a switch for it down below. Our wiring is a tad different than yours: key on, pump runs, discussed in the link I provided earlier. It just turns the pump off when I'm doing the secondary filter instead of having to go up to the cockpit. In your wiring, some skippers have installed ON switches for the pumps for secondary filter bleeding, which in my experience requires the removal of the nut on the top of the filter bracket.
 
I

iSailor

.
Oct 17, 2011
221
Catalina 310 USA
FYI, when I changed my fuel pump to the NAPA pump, the buzzer sound changed. Originally it was a rather slow beep......beep......beep. Now it is beep.beep......beep.beep......beep.beep.

Not sure why, but works fine.
 
c130king

c130king

.
Mar 22, 2009
360
Catalina 310 Gulfport Small Craft Harbor, MS
Stu,

I have no problems manually pumping the primary filter to bleed out the air. No plans to modify the wiring to use the lift pump.

iSailor, not sure why the new lift pump would change the buzzer. They are not connected electrically as far as I know.

I know the oil pressure sender is working because the lift pump works. But I can't get the oil pressure buzzer/light to work.

Cheers,
Jim
 
Witzend

Witzend

.
Dec 25, 2008
1,580
catalina 310 Elk River
The buzzer has 2 modes of operation. Mine reacts as a solid buzz when the engine is cold when the key is first turned on. Then if the engine is hot and you turn it off and let it sit for ~5 min. and then turn the key on you get the pulsing buzz. This happens because the temp sensor is indicating over temp because the coolant stopped flowing and not removing the heat. The core heat in the engine then brings the temp sensor over it's limit until you start the engine and the temp drops again. There are 2 different inputs to the buzzer device one for the Oil Pressure and one for the Temp Sensor.
As far as why Buds has now changed it's behavior, I suspect the leads are reversed on his compared to mine, thus his pulses and mine is steady. His new lift pump probably has a lower impedance motor winding and is drawing more current through the buzzer thus making it beep faster and I bet a bit louder.
Sorry for the long winded explanation.
 

Attachments

pk104

pk104

.
Jun 30, 2009
207
Catalina 310 Atwood Lake
If you put the numbers from the buzzer in Google you will find a couple suppliers. I had a short in the solenoid circuit I couldn't find and it turned out to be the buzzer. Intervoh 24 VDC, BRP4535s-24-CD. Gary
 
Bob James

Bob James

.
May 3, 2008
190
Catalina 310 Catawba Island
pk104 said:
I probably should of stated it was the glow plug solenoid circuit.
Click to expand
Several years ago I pulled in to the marina gas dock and when leaving I turned on the key and "nothing". I first tried resetting the breaker on the rear starboard side of the engine and that did not help. The marina mechanic came over and scratched his head and decided that the best thing to do right then was to get me back to my slip. He "hot wired" the starter and we motored back to our slip. Pulled out the wiring schematic and the multi meter and began to check the potential causes. Turned out to be the glow plug solenoid. As a follow-up I called the guy at Universal and asked if I should carry a spare and he said "he had not heard of this as a recurring problem", so no.

 
c130king

c130king

.
Mar 22, 2009
360
Catalina 310 Gulfport Small Craft Harbor, MS
Does anyone have any pictures of this circuit breaker on the rear starboard side of the motor that Bob mentions? I am not familiar with it.

Thanks,
Jim
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top Bottom