Life Jacket with Harness reviews/recommendations

BarryL · Jul 29, 2020

Hey,

I have some serious questions about tethers, jacklines, harness, etc.

How many of you actually use any of them? What percentage of the time you spend sailing is spent actually using a harness and tether? Why do you use or not use them?

Personally I just about ALWAYS wear a PDF and just about NEVER use a harness / tether.

When I do a long race that requires a harness / tether / jackline be used is the only time I use one. No one else I know uses one, and most people I know wear a PDF less than 1/2 the time.

Personally I wear a PDF because if I go over board I want to live. Where I sail the water is warm (this time of year), there are usually other boats in the vicinity, and it's not that far to land. I have a hand held VHF on my PDF, so I can call for help, etc. I figure that if I can float I will stay alive long enough to be rescued.

When I do use the harness it is a PITA to constantly clip in, un clip, move around stays and shrouds, etc. And I feel like I can still go overboard. My biggest fear is going over board with a tether, having my PDF inflate, and getting drowned by the boat. I make sure I have a knife on my person that I can open one handed. When I'm racing we are sailing aggressively, we make sail changes in all weather conditions, day and night, and I can see the need for a tether. When I'm on my boat and cruising, I rarely leave the cockpit. I rarely sail in very bad weather and I don't see the need for jacklines, etc.

To the original poster, maybe jacklines and tethers make sense for you, and maybe they don't. Before you spend a lot of money think about what YOU feel is right and why. For me, a good COMFORTABLE PDF is very important. A harness/tether/ jackline is not.

Comments?

Barry

srimes · Jul 29, 2020

Jackdaw said:
View attachment 183062

This is the layout I copied and like.

I only use the short leg of the tether 99% of the time and can reach everything for normal sailing, and it keeps in in the cockpit or on deck. It's snug if I stand straight up but perfectly comfortable, and I'm rarely standing anyways at sea.

1) If I need to go all the way to the bow I have to switch to the 6' leg as my deck lines stop just before the bow hatch. When I'm at the bow I clip the short leg to the pulpit, so I'm secured by 2 points. I have a jib downhaul so on most trips I don't even need to go past the mast.
2) To raise/lower the outboard I have to put my feet in the motor well, and to reach that far I need the 6' leg.

I made mine with dyneema. Low stretch and the clips slide nicely. Very affordable too.

p.s. I ALWAYS clip in at sea, in the cockpit and going forward. 50* water doesn't give you long to function. We lost a coworker a few months back when he fell off his boat.

Jackdaw · Jul 29, 2020

BarryL said:
Hey,

I have some serious questions about tethers, jacklines, harness, etc.

How many of you actually use any of them? What percentage of the time you spend sailing is spent actually using a harness and tether? Why do you use or not use them?

Personally I just about ALWAYS wear a PDF and just about NEVER use a harness / tether.

When I do a long race that requires a harness / tether / jackline be used is the only time I use one. No one else I know uses one, and most people I know wear a PDF less than 1/2 the time.

Personally I wear a PDF because if I go over board I want to live. Where I sail the water is warm (this time of year), there are usually other boats in the vicinity, and it's not that far to land. I have a hand held VHF on my PDF, so I can call for help, etc. I figure that if I can float I will stay alive long enough to be rescued.

When I do use the harness it is a PITA to constantly clip in, un clip, move around stays and shrouds, etc. And I feel like I can still go overboard. My biggest fear is going over board with a tether, having my PDF inflate, and getting drowned by the boat. I make sure I have a knife on my person that I can open one handed. When I'm racing we are sailing aggressively, we make sail changes in all weather conditions, day and night, and I can see the need for a tether. When I'm on my boat and cruising, I rarely leave the cockpit. I rarely sail in very bad weather and I don't see the need for jacklines, etc.

To the original poster, maybe jacklines and tethers make sense for you, and maybe they don't. Before you spend a lot of money think about what YOU feel is right and why. For me, a good COMFORTABLE PDF is very important. A harness/tether/ jackline is not.

Comments?

Barry

Part of this is a personal risk/reward equation. And it's going to be different for everybody, as you allude to.

For me, we rig jacklines for whenever we go offshore, or race nearshore. These are situations were you can't (or choose not to) avoid weather. 2 weekends ago I did the Hook race on Lake Michigan, and we expected severe thunderstorms at 3AM. 25 miles offshore, if we were just sailing, no way we stay out for that, we turn for safe harbor and sail in in comfort. But were racing so we suited up, and everyone clipped in. Glad we did, 65 knots and 2 COBs on other boats, one requiring the coasties.

In 'normal' sailing conditions on a crewed boat, I rarely wear a PFD. My relatively high level of nimbleness and boat sense makes that OK for me on the risk/reward curve. But racing, solo watchstanding or solo sailing, I'll start to gear up.

But everyone is different; the key is self awareness.

dlochner · Jul 29, 2020

srimes said:
I made mine with dyneema. Low stretch and the clips slide nicely. Very affordable too.

Dyneema is not a particularly good choice for jacklines for a couple of reasons. It is round and will roll under foot and it doesn't stretch. The first issue can contribute to slipping, thus increasing the risk of falling. It is better to have jacklines stretch a bit to absorb the impact of the fall, otherwise all of the impact is absorbed by the rib cage which is not good.

Flat webbing is generally regarded as the best material for jacklines because it doesn't roll under foot and it has some stretch.

Rather than clipping and unclipping the tether from the boat, have multiple tethers always connected and then connect the tether to the harness. Much easier.

Jackdaw · Jul 29, 2020

dlochner said:
Dyneema is not a particularly good choice for jacklines for a couple of reasons. It is round and will roll under foot and it doesn't stretch. The first issue can contribute to slipping, thus increasing the risk of falling. It is better to have jacklines stretch a bit to absorb the impact of the fall, otherwise all of the impact is absorbed by the rib cage which is not good.

Flat webbing is generally regarded as the best material for jacklines because it doesn't roll under foot and it has some stretch.

Rather than clipping and unclipping the tether from the boat, have multiple tethers always connected and then connect the tether to the harness. Much easier.

Fully agree with the first two points.

Not so much with the last... the concept might be OK for one person moving about, but with several it probably becomes a PITA. And, the KONG deck-side clips are so easy, safe and secure to operate; much better than a fiddly snap shackle.

dlochner · Jul 29, 2020

Jackdaw said:
Not so much with the last... the concept might be OK for one person moving about, but with several it probably becomes a PITA. And, the KONG deck-side clips are so easy, safe and secure to operate; much better than a fiddly snap shackle.

Mostly we sail with a crew of two, so traffic in the cockpit is not much of a problem. There are 2 padeyes at the front of the cockpit with tethers, 2 padeyes aft for the helm with one tether and one 2 legged tether attached to the jackline. One tether can be reached before needing to to detach from the first and there is a tether that can be attached before leaving the companionway.

If we had a larger crew, this would probably not work as well, expect for the double legged tether on the jackline.

dlochner · Jul 29, 2020

BarryL said:
Hey,

I have some serious questions about tethers, jacklines, harness, etc.

How many of you actually use any of them? What percentage of the time you spend sailing is spent actually using a harness and tether? Why do you use or not use them?

Personally I just about ALWAYS wear a PDF and just about NEVER use a harness / tether.

When I do a long race that requires a harness / tether / jackline be used is the only time I use one. No one else I know uses one, and most people I know wear a PDF less than 1/2 the time.

Personally I wear a PDF because if I go over board I want to live. Where I sail the water is warm (this time of year), there are usually other boats in the vicinity, and it's not that far to land. I have a hand held VHF on my PDF, so I can call for help, etc. I figure that if I can float I will stay alive long enough to be rescued.

When I do use the harness it is a PITA to constantly clip in, un clip, move around stays and shrouds, etc. And I feel like I can still go overboard. My biggest fear is going over board with a tether, having my PDF inflate, and getting drowned by the boat. I make sure I have a knife on my person that I can open one handed. When I'm racing we are sailing aggressively, we make sail changes in all weather conditions, day and night, and I can see the need for a tether. When I'm on my boat and cruising, I rarely leave the cockpit. I rarely sail in very bad weather and I don't see the need for jacklines, etc.

To the original poster, maybe jacklines and tethers make sense for you, and maybe they don't. Before you spend a lot of money think about what YOU feel is right and why. For me, a good COMFORTABLE PDF is very important. A harness/tether/ jackline is not.

Comments?

Barry

Wearing PFDs and using jacklines is always a risk based decision. We do have a few pretty consistent "rules".

At night, always wear PFDs
When the foul weather gear goes on, PFDs go on
And any other time that it seems necessary based on the conditions, the colder the water, the bigger the waves, the stronger the wind, the more likely we'll be wearing PFDs especially if we need to go forward.

Jacklines will go one if we are crossing the lake as we can be 25 miles offshore and there isn't much traffic. Whether we clip on depends on the conditions and the task.

Hunter216 · Jul 29, 2020

Based my lack of experience with this is it a reasonable assumption that the tether should never be long enough to allow the person to go overboard?

My thinking is if something happened and you were unconscious or dazed the restraint system would not allow you to exit the boat?

ggrizzard · Jul 29, 2020

For those of you with the "Pill" type actuator, The pill actually has an expiration date printed on it. And you do have to remove it to read the date. So, even if it has never gone off, you should check and replace per the date. Sneaky way to make you do a 're-arm' every few years.

Jackdaw · Jul 29, 2020

Hunter216 said:
Based my lack of experience with this is it a reasonable assumption that the tether should never be long enough to allow the person to go overboard?

My thinking is if something happened and you were unconscious or dazed the restraint system would not allow you to exit the boat?

In an ideal world, yes.

The trick is being able to run jacklines that do not interfere with sails/sheets/etc, and are far enough inboard to keep you onboard. Tether length also factors, shorter is better form a safety perspective, but you still have to move around and be able to get to every point on the boat. That's one of the reasons why the long/short dual tethers are popular, along with being able to switch jacklines without ever being unclipped.

dlochner · Jul 29, 2020

Hunter216 said:
Based my lack of experience with this is it a reasonable assumption that the tether should never be long enough to allow the person to go overboard?

My thinking is if something happened and you were unconscious or dazed the restraint system would not allow you to exit the boat?

Crew is most vulnerable when trying to do something, reefing, changing sails, etc. It is easy to be focused on the task and less attentive to wave action and other factors that might cause an unintended departure from the boat. The long/short double tether helps to reduce that risk. On Second Star there is ¼" dyneema loop around the mast. At the mast I can clip into the ring with the short tether and have both hands free. Because it is loop around the mast I can easily move to either side without detaching the tether. It is loose so it lies at the base of the mast where I clip into it and it can rise up as I stand. If I slip, the center of my chest can fall no more than 2 feet away from the mast and I can only fall from chest height to the deck.

Hunter216 · Jul 29, 2020

Jackdaw said:
That's one of the reasons why the long/short dual tethers are popular, along with being able to switch jacklines without ever being unclipped.

I can see the value of a system that always has you attached during transition.

It would seem to me that I would want to be proficient in using the restraint system to move around accomplishing the “sailing” tasks without having to think about it a lot. In other words get used to it in conditions where it might not be necessary and regularly practice to keep things somewhat on autopilot or use it all the time so when things get dicey your focus is on sailing.

Hunter216 · Jul 29, 2020

dlochner said:
On Second Star there is ¼" dyneema loop around the mast

The Lochner Loop ! Better hurry up and patent that idea

Jackdaw · Jul 30, 2020

dlochner said:
Crew is most vulnerable when trying to do something, reefing, changing sails, etc. It is easy to be focused on the task and less attentive to wave action and other factors that might cause an unintended departure from the boat. The long/short double tether helps to reduce that risk. On Second Star there is ¼" dyneema loop around the mast. At the mast I can clip into the ring with the short tether and have both hands free. Because it is loop around the mast I can easily move to either side without detaching the tether. It is loose so it lies at the base of the mast where I clip into it and it can rise up as I stand. If I slip, the center of my chest can fall no more than 2 feet away from the mast and I can only fall from chest height to the deck.

Clever. Because I'm often on OPBs, I've gotten used to just wrapping the long tether once or twice around the mast, and clipping it to itself. But I might make a portable one (closing with a soft shackle) of your loops.

FastOlson · Jul 30, 2020

We use flat webbing up each side of the deck. Our PFD's are Mustang hydro inflate with built in harness.
General rule is that everyone wears a vest when leaving the cockpit if it's rough at all, and always after dark.
And also, when leaving or approaching the dock.

We also have installed two large ss pad eyes in the cockpit, one near the bridge deck and cabin entry, and the other on the combing by the helm. While no system is going to be 100% safe, the more you reduce the risk the better off you are......

jaysweet · Jul 30, 2020

I'm mostly a listener on this topic, as I've mainly sailed in the Chesapeake. Never offshore (yet!). But when I started single-handing years ago, I rigged up a flat webbing jack line which goes from a padeye overhead on the Hunter's very solid arch (roughly mid-ship), runs to the mast (stbd side) and then goes to the port-side bow cleat. So it's starting out 6' above you when you're in the cockpit, and between cockpit and mast, it's basically running on centerline, but doesn't get in the way of the companionway, since it's up high. I think it's perfect in this area of the boat for keeping your attachment point far from the sides.

It's less than brilliant between the mast and the bow, but I think it gets really hard to design something that would absolutely keep you on the boat if you were determined to be perched on the bow. I just try not to go past the mast when I'm alone.

Also: I usually wear an inflatable pfd with harness when it's much over 10 knots, if I'm alone. If it's over around 17 knots or so, I probably have one on even with crew. Frankly, I don't often rig the jackline, because the range between 17 knots and where I tend to get nervous and not go out (22 knots, maybe) is pretty narrow.

dlochner · Jul 30, 2020

Hunter216 said:
The Lochner Loop ! Better hurry up and patent that idea

I am humbled by the international fame my simple solution has generated. Licenses to use the name "Lochner Loop" will be made available for a small fee, the proceeds will of course go to a good cause, a retirement fund for an senior citizen sailor who shall remain nameless.

Attached is an image of the Lochner Loop in action. Note to self, make sure the loop is above the boom vang before attaching the vang.