Liability Issue

[Will Gilmore]

... think about how insurance companies function, they are little more than profit oriented socialist organizations.

That sounds like a very interesting take. How do we turn that into a discussion about sailing? 'Cause that sounds very interesting to talk about.
Anyhow, sailboats are expensive, sailors have accidents, the environment is dangerous and no one likes going to court. Insurance is therefore, a necessary evil but it does need to work or it won't find traction once the world wakes up to that fact.
If you consider that the insurance industry has put a lot of time and money into calculating the cost to benefit formulas, then it really makes sense to have the self-control to build your own equity fund and be your own insurer. However, there will always be those who are on the bad luck end of the spectrum.
- Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I'm always conflicted when threads start down the political path. On the one hand this site is about sailing and sailing related topics. On the other hand, our country really needs to engage in thoughtful conversations about the very important issues facing us. We need to bring our citizens together and end the tribalism that dominates the media and politics. Avoiding those discussions does little to unite us.

Absolutely! When we want to put a muzzle on discussion, that's where we get into dangerous territory.

Will makes a great point about the insurance industry. I'm all for capitalist enterprise that allows us to make money by providing a service. But it does seem like there is a lot of gray area in the insurance industry where shady practices lead agents and policy writers to deceive their customers. I'm certainly not including thetone in this category, but there is also a lot of fraud for which insurance companies have to be protective of their own interests. It does seem to be an industry ripe with conflicts.

 

[dlochner]

That sounds like a very interesting take. How do we turn that into a discussion about sailing? 'Cause that sounds very interesting to talk about.

Before I even begin to wander down the path to answering the question. Let me unequivocally state, that I have no taste or admiration for tyrants, dictatorships, or oligarchies. Frequently, it seems, that those who throw out the phrase "that's socialism" are not really referring to socialism, but rather have confused the term with tyrants, dictators, and oligarchs. There are successful democracies, such as Sweden, Denmark, The Netherlands that have a strong socialist component.

So, the basic tenet of socialism is that we're all in this together. And that by working together we are stronger and healthier than each going our separate ways. In a socialist community, the strong help the weak and everyone contributes what they can. That notion, believe it or not, is deeply embedded in our democracy. Read the Declaration of Independence there are several references to the colonies standing together for the good of all colonies.

So on to insurance companies being for profit socialist organizations. The way insurance works, is that a group of people throw some money in a pot and if something bad happens, the money in the pot pays for whatever is being insured. In essence, when we join an insurance pool, we're saying we will work with other members of the pool for the good of all members of the pool. That is essentially a socialist model, a group of people working together for the good of greater group. Many of us pay insurance premiums every year and never reap a benefit, some pay for one year and reap a benefit, but we're all in the pool together, helping each other out financially to mitigate the cost of any disaster.

The for profit piece is easy. An organization offers to organize this pool and for managing and organizing they skim some off the top of the pool.

Many yacht clubs and other social organizations are founded on similar principles, we all work together for the greater good.

Now I have to run to fix a flat tire on a boat trailer before it rains. Anyone want to come over and help?

 

[Roland5048]

I'm not agitated. You agitated?
Anybody agitated?

I wasn't until the anti-socialist post. Now, I have to go onto another thread before I post something that gets me banned.

 

[Will Gilmore]

The other insurance company is denying my claim. They say that since their insured had the mooring inspected there was no negligent act committed

Here is a case where the insurance company is claiming that they only pay if a negligent act was committed, accident, bad luck, a perfectly sound mooring that just happens to drag on the one bare patch of flat bedrock, do not constitute a responsibility to pay in a liability claim against them and their client. This seems to go against the whole idea of a stewardship for liability that the insurance company is charging money for. Is anyone here paying their insurance company premiums with the expectation that said company will simply take the money and not pay out when someone has suffered damages that the premium payer is involved in causing? Most people take a blase' stance figuring that the insurance is required and their "real" job is to insulate the insured from financial responsibility. If the insurance company can do that and never pay a claim, all is cool. Except, for most of us who do live as participating members of a community, that isn't enough and it is a misrepresentation of the service we are getting charged for. The yacht club insists that it's members carry liability insurance. Mostly, that is to have a way of settling conflict that comes up between members so the club doesn't have to get involve. Also, it might be to, hopefully, make it easier to collect if a member caused property damage to club facilities. However, if the insurance companies make it too onerous to extract that payment, the community is again thrown into judicial conflict, lawyers make money, insurance companies spend money, clients are unhappy, communities weaken their bonds and the requirement for insurance becomes a requirement for security deposits instead. There are ways to cut the insurance company middle man out until claims get too big and government insurance lobbyists succeed in passing legislation so they can again collect premiums without having to pay out claims.
That is where Socialism comes in. Strictly speaking, Socialism is defined as government controlling/owning the means of production. In this case, it's regulated or mandatory insurance. If the community of insured were to actually work together to cover each other as the ones in control of the economic system of boat insurance then you're talking Communism. That is a system that doesn't actually exist because people can't work together and make the sacrifices it takes to pay where they are not invested personally to do so.
The question we are all working on here is, is there a position, a stand, we can take that makes a situation like the one thetone is in, easier to get satisfaction? Can we, as a community of sailboat owners, organize or define our liability to our fellow sailors so that the response to a dragged mooring that caused damage to another is easier and more naturally equitable?
It is always important to imagine yourself on either side of that equation. What would you like to have happen if your boat had been the one to drag. Consider, that guy's boat had to have taken damage as well. If he pays for thetone's damages, he also had too pay for his own. If he didn't suffer damage, he can consider himself lucky and get on his boat and go sailing without delay or inconvenience. Tehtone, on the other hand, has a bunch of problems to settle before he is whole and back to sailing again. It doesn't seem fair but everyone is faced with that same possibility in equal measure.
How should it be? What would be the best plan so no one is ever unhappy? Like true Communism, it can't exist.
- Will ("trying to relate this to sailing", Dragonfly)

 

[Roland5048]

That is where Socialism comes in. Strictly speaking, Socialism is defined as government controlling/owning the means of production. In this case, it's regulated or mandatory insurance. If the community of insured were to actually work together to cover each other as the ones in control of the economic system of boat insurance then you're talking Communism.

Socialism vs. Communism. When people either equate these two or mix them up, that's what agitates me. Gotta go now.

 

[Rick D]

The only satisfactory answer to your hypothetical question would be a no-fault type of plan wherein each owner would be required to carry hull insurance to protect their asset. And, of course, you would need a change in the governing law regarding marine liability to to a no-fault form to make it work. About a dozen states have such laws for auto claims, although they tend to be expanded over time and you can wind up with a dual system that gets very expensive.
In a liability model, negligence is defined by adjudication. And, your insurer only owes what you owe legally at the end of that process. That's simplified of course, but the point is that no one owes you damages unless and until that is proven. You have no claim against the other guys insurer; you have a claim against him. Again, simplified.
There are some voluntary payment coverage extensions in some policies where (smallish) payments can be made to another person at the policyholder's request regardless of negligence. Those typically do not involve large coverage limits and I don't remember them being in my marine policy. I once used such a coverage to pay for a gal's glasses I broke accidentally during...oh never mind.

 

[justsomeguy]

..."trying to relate this to sailing"...

What a tightrope!

 

[dlochner]

Strictly speaking, Socialism is defined as government controlling/owning the means of production. In this case, it's regulated or mandatory insurance. If the community of insured were to actually work together to cover each other as the ones in control of the economic system of boat insurance then you're talking Communism. That is a system that doesn't actually exist because people can't work together and make the sacrifices it takes to pay where they are not invested personally to do so.

Will, you have backwards, socialism is liberal and decisions are made by the people in the group. Communism is a conservative approach with all decisions being made by a central authority. See for example: Difference between Socialism and Communism | Difference Between.

Maritime tradition has a long history of mutual responsibility and obligation. There is a long tradition of mariners going to the aide of distressed vessels and mariners formed the old sailors homes in many ports to support and care for mariners. We are descended from the that tradition. The history of insurance is also tied to mariners. Some of the early insurance companies were formed to insure cargoes being shipped by water. It was risky to cross and ocean back in the day, merchants and ship owners needed financial protection from lost cargoes.