Let’s start a conversation about ASA 101, etc. is it helping or hurting?

[jssailem]

You would think that prospective students would do their due diligence in selecting an appropriate school.

While I agree with the concept. The problem stems from the issue that "You do not know what you do not know." This puts the new student at a great disadvantage. Will the teacher they get be able to communicate the knowledge to the student in a way/manner that the student needs to learn.

Why at the start of this thread I injected the idea of a mentor instructor who jumped into the boat with 2-3 students and each of the students worked all of the roles of sailing a small boat. That such instruction occurred over a multiple number of days/weekends and the instructor pool rotated among all of the students.

But that is just my thoughts.

 

[SoSound]

...You would think that prospective students would do their due diligence in selecting an appropriate school...

If, "You do not know what you do not know", then how do you know what due diligence is necessary?

... It seems, as mentioned in one post, that sailing courses and camps we might have used in our youth have been replaced by a commercial service, the ASA, that gets a lot of recommendations.

Is the ASA "commercial", in the sense that it is a 'for profit' organization? I looked (briefly), and I couldn't find anything on the ASA web site about the structure of the organization. The brief About Us page at ASA.com describes an organization which attempts "...to establish standards against which to measure a sailor’s level of knowledge and skill...", it doesn't say anything about building a money making network of sailing schools. Certainly, the charter companies are "commercial" operations in the conventional sense. It is the charter companies, among others, who choose to offer training programs which conform to the standards established by the ASA.

Standards such as this should be considered the "MINIMUM" necessary level of knowledge and skill. From this level, you have a baseline from which to improve your knowledge, skills, and performance. If a person doesn't know the first thing about "Basic Keelboat", and they don't know where that fits relative to other knowledge and skills, then how effective will that person be in coaching a first time sailor? The 100-ton captain who just wanted to get their 'sailing endorsement' is the perfect example... maybe he (or she) should have taken an ASA 101 course first. It's also a perfect example of extremely poor due diligence.

Returning to 'commercial' operations, most ASA training programs are probably operating profitably. Although, I doubt that they are wildly profitable, or you would see more sailing schools than charter companies. The real commercial benefit comes from the risk management perspective and knowing what the minimum knowledge and skill level of your charter customer is. Imagine chartering a brand new sailboat to a 100-ton captain, and then having to haul the boat off the seawall when the captain doesn't know how to sail.

 

[Kings Gambit]

So let me clarify. My wife’s and my introductory introductory sailing course was in a Red Cross program offered via a watercraft program at a college. She subsequently completed a Skipper Saver course offered by the US Power Squadron; received her completion certificate. Then, together we also completed a Basic Boating Safety course offered by the USCG Auxiliary—several weeks long. All within about a year. By this time, ca.1990, we owned a 20-ft boat with partners. Also by this time, we were chartering at least once a year from a local (independent) marina/yacht broker. Now, I believe each of those above programs are non-profits. To my knowledge, ASA is not. When I say “commercial” that is my contrast: non-profit versus for profit.

Also, I am not critical of the ASA curriculum specifically. I’m critical that with some 300 affiliate schools, the organization is beginning to dominate the entry-training pathway. Compared to the programs mentioned above, it is expensive and has been merged to a certain degree with charter-boat businesses which have opened on-site schools, etc. Folks appear to be willing to recommend ASA to newbies simply because they know of it, rather than knowing anything about it, etc. I just question whether, on the whole, this is good for sailing—helps or hurts.

Prior to ASA’s large presence now, charter companies did their own evaluations. I’ve taken more than written “test” to qualify for a charter. Had more than one skills test on the water. Even now, a prospective charterer must submit a resume that is reviewed/approved by the insurance underwriter, so I’m told. I think the charter companies know that a 100-ton ticket is largely by exam. There is nothing about sailing, lacking an endorsement. I do not think a company would do what you hypothesize.

 

[FastOlson]

Hmmm...
It Occurs to me that I and about 5 or more of my friends with over 40 years each of sailing, racing, and ocean & coastal deliveries...
might be qualified to teach a course, but having no ASA credentials could not charter a boat.
Of course, with our self imposed limits on flying in commercial aircraft due to pandemic risk, this is all academic anyway for the next few years. (sigh...)
Looks like I should have booked a Caribbean charter about ten or twenty years ago, when the condition of the boat would have been our only major worry!

 

[Jackdaw]

Hmmm It Occurs to me that I and about 5 or more of my friends with over 40 years each of sailing, racing, and deliveries...
might be qualified to teach a course, but having no ASA credentials could not charter a boat.
Of course, with our self imposed limits on flying commercial aircraft due to pandemic risk, this is all academic anyway for the next few years. (sigh...)
Looks like I should have booked a Caribbean charter about ten or twenty years ago, when the condition of the boat would have been our only major worry!

Actually the reality is completely opposite, and that thinking is part of a perpetuated fallacy about certification and chartering. If you have solid experience documented (sailing resume), you will absolutely be able to charter a boat based on that. Conversely a freshly minted ASA 104 student with no real sailing experience will simply being unable to get a boat.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Conversely a freshly minted ASA 104 student with no real sailing experience will simply being unable to get a boat.

If the student completes an ASA sequence at a school associated with the charter company, then s/he might be able to. Some charter companies, as I said, have schools that train students to use their own boats. It was only in March of this year I was told, with all of my general experience, that I could not bare-boat charter a cruising cat for a weekend on San Diego Bay unless I completed ASA 114, Cruising Catamaran. (Which is now offered in tandem with ASA 104-Chartering). The argument being I had no catamaran experience, and catamarans required different skills than monohulls. I got the ASA book to discover that the “different skills” were largely about how to operate the boat at low speed under power (twin screws), and when to reef (e.g., 15 kt apparent). A one-hour, or less, on the water orientation with a staff member, etc. I told them I would pay separately for such an orientation. No go. Had to take the course, etc. Which, by the way, I have not.

 

[SoSound]

@Kings Gambit, I really do hope that your experience in March can be attributed to that particular charter company, and that it is NOT part of a larger business model being promoted by ASA. Regardless... I would change my apparent side in this conversation in half a heartbeat toward anyone who implements such a narrow minded interpretation of skills proficiency screening... I absolutely support standardized (widely accepted) training content, curriculum, and methods across 400 affiliated schools. But to require what ASA describes as a "multi-day liveaboard cruise" as a prerequisite to allowing you to charter from them? I think that that model would definitely be hurting, rather than helping sailing in a broader sense.

I know several friends who chartered a catamaran in the Caribbean a couple of winters ago. I don't think any of them had previous catamaran experience.

I once read that Taos Ski Valley used to require ski lessons in their on mountain ski vacation packages. But they also used to stash martini filled carafes in the snow at what they called Martini Trees, and the instructors knew where they were located.