I want to share a tough conversation that I overheard today. Local NYC Coast Guard was in contact with a vessel in distress. At first I heard the vessel was taking on water. The coast guard station then learned that there were 4 adults. What made me particularly upset was that no one on board had a life vest. Then the news got worse. The captain had no clue where he was. All I heard was "..we're 1 mile offshore..." It was amazing to hear the conversation – “…Sir are you 1 mile offshore Long Island, Sandy Hook, NJ - what is your position and do you see any landmarks…” said the Coast Guard station. This went on for quite some time. It appears that the captain of the 27ft motor vessel was not able to share his exact or approximate position with the coast guard. After a while the Coast Guard informed all local vessels that the vessel in distress was now 1/2 submerged in the water - somewhere 'near shore'. After 30 minutes of cringing and hoping everything would end well, I returned to port. I've been thinking about this - was it alcohol, absolute fear or something else that really caused the captain to blank and not relate his position? I understand not wearing life vests while on water, but not even having life vests for all passengers on board at all? Perhaps we can all learn from this.
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Were they the winning charity bidders
A question posted earlier had to do with whether you needed a capt lic to take what I'll call "strangers aboard" for a charity fund raiser. I can see why you do .....
A question posted earlier had to do with whether you needed a capt lic to take what I'll call "strangers aboard" for a charity fund raiser. I can see why you do .....
I'm Sure They Got a Position Before Too Long
Like in less than 10 minutes. The Coast Guard is able to triangulate positions fairly quickly. The watchstander gets all of the information he can and then at the sector (next level up) they put another bearings from a different towers together to get a pretty good position. The trouble with just one bearing to go on is it could have been on either side of Long Island for instance, the second or even third and fourth narrows it down. The guy on the radio has plenty to do getting the information on what type of boat number of persons on board etc to try to triangulate a position. He also wants to keep the boater transmiting on the radio to narrow the position down. With the new system the computer does all of this automatically even tells who the owner of the radio's information if it is registered and if hooked up to the GPS gives them an exact position right away. Here is alink to a good Power Point Presentation of the system. http://www.uscg.mil/rescue21/about/R21_Brief.ppt#1 Panic and fear can really do a number on folks practice and experience help but not always. Repetitious drills help elevate panic and inaction a trained person will start right in to the emergency procedures without thinking. Often you hear someone say "I just followed my training and did not have time to be scared" or "My training kicked in and I did everything I was supposed to". When we go out for fun we do not want to think about what might happen. Making a point to save some time to go over the "What If" could save you bacon some day. Hope everything turned out OK.
Like in less than 10 minutes. The Coast Guard is able to triangulate positions fairly quickly. The watchstander gets all of the information he can and then at the sector (next level up) they put another bearings from a different towers together to get a pretty good position. The trouble with just one bearing to go on is it could have been on either side of Long Island for instance, the second or even third and fourth narrows it down. The guy on the radio has plenty to do getting the information on what type of boat number of persons on board etc to try to triangulate a position. He also wants to keep the boater transmiting on the radio to narrow the position down. With the new system the computer does all of this automatically even tells who the owner of the radio's information if it is registered and if hooked up to the GPS gives them an exact position right away. Here is alink to a good Power Point Presentation of the system. http://www.uscg.mil/rescue21/about/R21_Brief.ppt#1 Panic and fear can really do a number on folks practice and experience help but not always. Repetitious drills help elevate panic and inaction a trained person will start right in to the emergency procedures without thinking. Often you hear someone say "I just followed my training and did not have time to be scared" or "My training kicked in and I did everything I was supposed to". When we go out for fun we do not want to think about what might happen. Making a point to save some time to go over the "What If" could save you bacon some day. Hope everything turned out OK.
The Guy Next to You
*** *** *** Tony posted: "I've been thinking about this - was it alcohol, absolute fear or something else that really caused the captain to blank and not relate his position?" *** *** *** You're assuming he actually knew his position. I hate to think it true, but I'm sure that skippers of pleasurecraft pilot around for the afternoon without navigation aids such as charts, and don't know the names of local landmarks on shore; nor are they familiar with the marked buoys in their area. And that's not to mention GPS (Lord, even a Loran set would make a huge difference in this situation). The same negligent attitude causes the forebearance of adding life vests and other safety equipment, whether required by law or not, a modest assortment of frequently-used spare parts such as belts, filters, fuses, HOSE CLAMPS and engine oil, or the tools necessary to make them of any use. If these same skippers are as fastidious about their maintenance as they are about the safety of their vessels, crew and guests, they're skating on thin ice, indeed. Once something goes wrong, they suddenly realize they don't have the resources to address the problem and haven't really known where they have been in the last two hours, positionally speaking, and their boats are going down. At that point, fear makes clear thinking difficult. I agree: there is a lot to learn here.
*** *** *** Tony posted: "I've been thinking about this - was it alcohol, absolute fear or something else that really caused the captain to blank and not relate his position?" *** *** *** You're assuming he actually knew his position. I hate to think it true, but I'm sure that skippers of pleasurecraft pilot around for the afternoon without navigation aids such as charts, and don't know the names of local landmarks on shore; nor are they familiar with the marked buoys in their area. And that's not to mention GPS (Lord, even a Loran set would make a huge difference in this situation). The same negligent attitude causes the forebearance of adding life vests and other safety equipment, whether required by law or not, a modest assortment of frequently-used spare parts such as belts, filters, fuses, HOSE CLAMPS and engine oil, or the tools necessary to make them of any use. If these same skippers are as fastidious about their maintenance as they are about the safety of their vessels, crew and guests, they're skating on thin ice, indeed. Once something goes wrong, they suddenly realize they don't have the resources to address the problem and haven't really known where they have been in the last two hours, positionally speaking, and their boats are going down. At that point, fear makes clear thinking difficult. I agree: there is a lot to learn here.
lessons
sorry, but i believe no more lessons were learned than from people smoking in public or not wearing pfd's.
sorry, but i believe no more lessons were learned than from people smoking in public or not wearing pfd's.
Wasn't Clay
the guy who went all the way of 3 miles offshore and related his problems trying to communicate? Didn't he have a bunch of VHFs and never used them? Looks like he would certainly benefit from a license or boating course of some sort....
the guy who went all the way of 3 miles offshore and related his problems trying to communicate? Didn't he have a bunch of VHFs and never used them? Looks like he would certainly benefit from a license or boating course of some sort....
Distress
There is one thing that is perfectly clear to me. They should just let these guys sind and drown. Get them the hell out of the gene pool. If left to their own devices now, they won't be a danger to the rest of us in the future. How does anyone get so stupid, as to not have live jackets on board and not have a clue where they are. And anyone who gets on board a boat with this skipper is just as dumb as he is. Yeah I know, don't take me to the wood shed for my comments, just thinking out load. Seems like there should me a minimum IQ requirement for operating anything with wheels, a motor or sails.
There is one thing that is perfectly clear to me. They should just let these guys sind and drown. Get them the hell out of the gene pool. If left to their own devices now, they won't be a danger to the rest of us in the future. How does anyone get so stupid, as to not have live jackets on board and not have a clue where they are. And anyone who gets on board a boat with this skipper is just as dumb as he is. Yeah I know, don't take me to the wood shed for my comments, just thinking out load. Seems like there should me a minimum IQ requirement for operating anything with wheels, a motor or sails.
Norm - I took the Coast Guard Aux course
25 years ago. As I said in my other postings, I honestly have (3)three of everything, that would include 3 life jackets for every person aboard. (I guess it's the mainframe systems engineer in me) My communication difficulties were to my wife, not the coast guard, and I knew where I was, she didn't. I said I could have used my VHF for a land to shore connection, but felt comfortable enough with what I was doing. I'm on my 6th boat, (3)sail. Not saying that makes me a expert, but I'm comfortable enough with my knowledge... don't be surprised that you might learn something from me if I hang around. I don't mind being the butt of a joke, as long as someone else can learn something, if not, then at least they may think of something they may not have thought of before ... Maybe you didn't learn anything, but I wonder how many people that read my post assumed their cell phone would work offshore. If I am wrong then maybe this site isn't for me. I think I can handle myself out in the deep just fine. I am new to this site, not boating. I have enjoyed this site past week, have picked up a few things, but respect for the water and my fellow sailors I already had. I have stories that could make you laugh or make you cry. All of my stories come with lessons learned first hand. After all isn't that how we gain our experience. The story Tony posted is not far off from some of the stories we may all have had one time or another, that's my bet. You don't become a seasoned sailor by just reading about other peoples trials. I won't take what you said personal Norm, I'll take it that you have a sense of humor as I do....
25 years ago. As I said in my other postings, I honestly have (3)three of everything, that would include 3 life jackets for every person aboard. (I guess it's the mainframe systems engineer in me) My communication difficulties were to my wife, not the coast guard, and I knew where I was, she didn't. I said I could have used my VHF for a land to shore connection, but felt comfortable enough with what I was doing. I'm on my 6th boat, (3)sail. Not saying that makes me a expert, but I'm comfortable enough with my knowledge... don't be surprised that you might learn something from me if I hang around. I don't mind being the butt of a joke, as long as someone else can learn something, if not, then at least they may think of something they may not have thought of before ... Maybe you didn't learn anything, but I wonder how many people that read my post assumed their cell phone would work offshore. If I am wrong then maybe this site isn't for me. I think I can handle myself out in the deep just fine. I am new to this site, not boating. I have enjoyed this site past week, have picked up a few things, but respect for the water and my fellow sailors I already had. I have stories that could make you laugh or make you cry. All of my stories come with lessons learned first hand. After all isn't that how we gain our experience. The story Tony posted is not far off from some of the stories we may all have had one time or another, that's my bet. You don't become a seasoned sailor by just reading about other peoples trials. I won't take what you said personal Norm, I'll take it that you have a sense of humor as I do....
There are lots of places that cell phones
won't work. You don't need to go off shore to find that you don't have an active cell. I often have people call from their car as they are traveling. They end up calling three times to finish the conversation. Drive out of an active cell and they get disconnected.
won't work. You don't need to go off shore to find that you don't have an active cell. I often have people call from their car as they are traveling. They end up calling three times to finish the conversation. Drive out of an active cell and they get disconnected.
Besides - I paid the $10.00 lic fee to NJ
That's the real crime in our State, no training or education, just pay $10.00.
That's the real crime in our State, no training or education, just pay $10.00.
We were to raft up with another sailboat
yesterday. When I called to determine his position and said "we're heading xyz degrees, at 5 knots, just going under the ABC bridge, should be at the se corner of island Q in about an hour. Where are you now and where are you planning to anchor?" The potential rafter said he was nearing China Camp, which was at least five miles north of where we were originally planning to meet. I explained that. Then he said "Oh, China Basin." Wrong again, dude, that's two miles behind me! "Oh," he said, "I always get those confused, but we'll meet on the side of the island like we talked about yesterday." Then he "hung up" by turning off his radio. Clueless. He's some kind of computer programmer. I hope he's more specific for his clients.
yesterday. When I called to determine his position and said "we're heading xyz degrees, at 5 knots, just going under the ABC bridge, should be at the se corner of island Q in about an hour. Where are you now and where are you planning to anchor?" The potential rafter said he was nearing China Camp, which was at least five miles north of where we were originally planning to meet. I explained that. Then he said "Oh, China Basin." Wrong again, dude, that's two miles behind me! "Oh," he said, "I always get those confused, but we'll meet on the side of the island like we talked about yesterday." Then he "hung up" by turning off his radio. Clueless. He's some kind of computer programmer. I hope he's more specific for his clients.
Motor vessel
I think you guys missed that. Many people who buy a powerboat, they buy it thinking it's a car on water. Turn the key and drive...that's all you need to do. Don't need to know where you are, just how to get back. Now if it were a sailor, then I would be surprised. As for not having any life jackets...that's easy to see. The a guy buys a boat and none come with it. It's his first boat and even though he is told he needs (maybe he is told) he puts it on his todo list. The weekend comes and it's nice out so what's on his mind? I want to take all my buddies out on the water and having a good time and enjoy all this money I just spent. Lifejackets...I'll get around to it next weekend.
I think you guys missed that. Many people who buy a powerboat, they buy it thinking it's a car on water. Turn the key and drive...that's all you need to do. Don't need to know where you are, just how to get back. Now if it were a sailor, then I would be surprised. As for not having any life jackets...that's easy to see. The a guy buys a boat and none come with it. It's his first boat and even though he is told he needs (maybe he is told) he puts it on his todo list. The weekend comes and it's nice out so what's on his mind? I want to take all my buddies out on the water and having a good time and enjoy all this money I just spent. Lifejackets...I'll get around to it next weekend.
Pretty easy to understand
You have to get it from his point of view to really get it. His boat is a car. If something goes wrong, hay I don't really think about what I'd do if my car broke down. There is plenty of time to figure that out, right? And those safety regulations about PFD and seatbelts but the CG is pretty thin out on the water so I don't really care about that either. So we just head on out and past that big bridge (don't know the name) and south for a while till I see the big yellow building on shore. Kinda sounds like he is driving to work. Do you know all the roads you pass when you drive to work. I sure don't. But I know all the landmarks that I regularly boat around. When the boat springs a leak it dawns on him that "hay, I can't get out of the boat." REALITY finally sets in and he grabs the radio and like a real man calls for help. "Where are you?" the CG asks. He has no clew because he doesn't know the landmarks so "I'm a mile of shore". "Have everyone put on their PFD" says the CG. "we don't have any" (cause you are not suppose to be around asking questions Mr. CG person). I'd wager it made him made that the CG told him that. Hay, I have that GPS thing, but don't know how to read it, lets waist 15 minutes trying to figure out how to use it. Dang thing just gives me the lat and long. I still don't know where I am. He doesn't know that the CG has a map just like the one he didn't buy that has lat/long on it so lat/long are not usefull to him. He cannot even identify what is usefull in this situation because he has such a small understanding of how it all fits together. How many of us know exactly how to get the jack out of the trunk and change the tire. I know I read the placards the first time I use one. A sinking boat is not the time to be reading placards. But his boat is a car. The truth of the matter is he has never once sat down and thought about anything except having fun on his boat. He is a child and should receive a stern spanking when he gets ashore. He is not an adult who in the natural course of events plans ahead and anticipates problems so they don't ever become problems. My heart goes out to anyone who finds themselves in a situation like this and I would not hesitate a second to help his passengers find safety but I think that after they are safely on shore he should be shot for, as Nice-N-Easy said, the good of the gene pool.
You have to get it from his point of view to really get it. His boat is a car. If something goes wrong, hay I don't really think about what I'd do if my car broke down. There is plenty of time to figure that out, right? And those safety regulations about PFD and seatbelts but the CG is pretty thin out on the water so I don't really care about that either. So we just head on out and past that big bridge (don't know the name) and south for a while till I see the big yellow building on shore. Kinda sounds like he is driving to work. Do you know all the roads you pass when you drive to work. I sure don't. But I know all the landmarks that I regularly boat around. When the boat springs a leak it dawns on him that "hay, I can't get out of the boat." REALITY finally sets in and he grabs the radio and like a real man calls for help. "Where are you?" the CG asks. He has no clew because he doesn't know the landmarks so "I'm a mile of shore". "Have everyone put on their PFD" says the CG. "we don't have any" (cause you are not suppose to be around asking questions Mr. CG person). I'd wager it made him made that the CG told him that. Hay, I have that GPS thing, but don't know how to read it, lets waist 15 minutes trying to figure out how to use it. Dang thing just gives me the lat and long. I still don't know where I am. He doesn't know that the CG has a map just like the one he didn't buy that has lat/long on it so lat/long are not usefull to him. He cannot even identify what is usefull in this situation because he has such a small understanding of how it all fits together. How many of us know exactly how to get the jack out of the trunk and change the tire. I know I read the placards the first time I use one. A sinking boat is not the time to be reading placards. But his boat is a car. The truth of the matter is he has never once sat down and thought about anything except having fun on his boat. He is a child and should receive a stern spanking when he gets ashore. He is not an adult who in the natural course of events plans ahead and anticipates problems so they don't ever become problems. My heart goes out to anyone who finds themselves in a situation like this and I would not hesitate a second to help his passengers find safety but I think that after they are safely on shore he should be shot for, as Nice-N-Easy said, the good of the gene pool.
Clay, that is going away in NJ
I find it interesting being a NJ Boater that you don't know that . http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/maritime/faq.html Starting this year and by June of 2009 everyone in NJ will be required to have shown that they passed some sort of boater education test. (Unless you were born before 1960 you better have the boater safety certificate in your wallet by next June 1st 2007). Connecticut has that requirement already. It might not be extensive as a 100 Ton CG license but at least its something. As for the sinking (partial sinking ?)of that boat off the Jersey coast, I was listening the the one sided coversation (Coast Guard) all the way up into LI Sound. I also heard them say it was a Blue and White Bayliner (21 feet??) It did sound like later in the conversation that the people on board did put on their life jackets (I too found it hard to believe that in this day any boat doesn't have PFD's on board - they are too cheap and easy to store and have on a boat). As for knowing their position, thats not easy on the open ocean without a GPS on board. But again in this day and age I can't fathom even the smallest boat (especially one going off shore) not having at least a hand held GPS. They are just too inexpensive not to have one. What does a small Garmin cost? Maybe $125 -- probably less cost than one days Beer Food and Fuel?? I will say in defense of the boater that they might have had electrical/electronic malfunction due to the incursion of water from the problem they had. Who knows? Its easy for us to second guess and make assumptions without knowing what really happened. I will also say that its not so easy to know exactly where you are off the coast of NJ. I went out with a fishing party last month out of Belmar and once you go a few miles off shore its very hard to know exactly where you are without a GPS. There are few distinguishing unique onshore landmarks. I know if you asked me where I was I couldn't tell you other than "East of the Jersey shore inlet of Belmar maybe 5 miles north (maybe not !?)" One last thing - later that day I heard that someone saw some flares - I wasn't sure at the time but I think I did hear that they were seen off of NJ. Maybe these people in the bayliner were better prepared than all of you first assumed and just had a terrible event converge on them all at once. I don't know the outcome though
I find it interesting being a NJ Boater that you don't know that . http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/maritime/faq.html Starting this year and by June of 2009 everyone in NJ will be required to have shown that they passed some sort of boater education test. (Unless you were born before 1960 you better have the boater safety certificate in your wallet by next June 1st 2007). Connecticut has that requirement already. It might not be extensive as a 100 Ton CG license but at least its something. As for the sinking (partial sinking ?)of that boat off the Jersey coast, I was listening the the one sided coversation (Coast Guard) all the way up into LI Sound. I also heard them say it was a Blue and White Bayliner (21 feet??) It did sound like later in the conversation that the people on board did put on their life jackets (I too found it hard to believe that in this day any boat doesn't have PFD's on board - they are too cheap and easy to store and have on a boat). As for knowing their position, thats not easy on the open ocean without a GPS on board. But again in this day and age I can't fathom even the smallest boat (especially one going off shore) not having at least a hand held GPS. They are just too inexpensive not to have one. What does a small Garmin cost? Maybe $125 -- probably less cost than one days Beer Food and Fuel?? I will say in defense of the boater that they might have had electrical/electronic malfunction due to the incursion of water from the problem they had. Who knows? Its easy for us to second guess and make assumptions without knowing what really happened. I will also say that its not so easy to know exactly where you are off the coast of NJ. I went out with a fishing party last month out of Belmar and once you go a few miles off shore its very hard to know exactly where you are without a GPS. There are few distinguishing unique onshore landmarks. I know if you asked me where I was I couldn't tell you other than "East of the Jersey shore inlet of Belmar maybe 5 miles north (maybe not !?)" One last thing - later that day I heard that someone saw some flares - I wasn't sure at the time but I think I did hear that they were seen off of NJ. Maybe these people in the bayliner were better prepared than all of you first assumed and just had a terrible event converge on them all at once. I don't know the outcome though
Another interesting side note
My Cell Phone was working just fine off the jersey coast last month. I was way off the coast and I was still getting Cell Phone calls. I think Verizon knows a lot of boaters are off the coast and point their Cell Towers out there or maybe its the fact that its line of site and nothing in the way to degrade the signal
My Cell Phone was working just fine off the jersey coast last month. I was way off the coast and I was still getting Cell Phone calls. I think Verizon knows a lot of boaters are off the coast and point their Cell Towers out there or maybe its the fact that its line of site and nothing in the way to degrade the signal
Todays Mayday call
Just today someone in a sailboat hailed a "Mayday" call because he had run aground in approx 4 feet of water. The charts all show the water as is shallow. Another sailboat tied to come to his rescue but became partially grounded and got back to deep water. The Coast Guard only listened to the radio call and did not offer assistance. A power boat did come and tow the sailboat off and into the harbor. The interesting facts are 1. The idiot doesn't know what a MAYDAY hail is for (he didn't have any life threatening situation aboard) 2. Last year we ran aground and the Coast Guard came to observe us at approx 600 yards away while another sailboat pulled us to freedom, and 3. On August 10, 2006 Latrell Sprewell's, the former NBA player, yacht drifted aground off Atwater Beach in Milwaukee and the COast Guard spent over 3-4 hours trying to tow him off. The question is if the Coast Guard did not assist either myself with a troop of Boy Scouts or this "MAYDAY" idiot from a the rocks, why do they spend 3-4 hours trying to tow the NBA player who who chokes his coaches and has a reputation of extreme parties oboard is vessel to safety???? What is the Coast Guard's policy?
Just today someone in a sailboat hailed a "Mayday" call because he had run aground in approx 4 feet of water. The charts all show the water as is shallow. Another sailboat tied to come to his rescue but became partially grounded and got back to deep water. The Coast Guard only listened to the radio call and did not offer assistance. A power boat did come and tow the sailboat off and into the harbor. The interesting facts are 1. The idiot doesn't know what a MAYDAY hail is for (he didn't have any life threatening situation aboard) 2. Last year we ran aground and the Coast Guard came to observe us at approx 600 yards away while another sailboat pulled us to freedom, and 3. On August 10, 2006 Latrell Sprewell's, the former NBA player, yacht drifted aground off Atwater Beach in Milwaukee and the COast Guard spent over 3-4 hours trying to tow him off. The question is if the Coast Guard did not assist either myself with a troop of Boy Scouts or this "MAYDAY" idiot from a the rocks, why do they spend 3-4 hours trying to tow the NBA player who who chokes his coaches and has a reputation of extreme parties oboard is vessel to safety???? What is the Coast Guard's policy?
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