So there I was.... Sailing on my H260 on a broad reach in strong gusty winds. There was a regatta going on up and down the middle of the lake. I passed the race and headed for the fairly narrow pass from my lake to the other lake (A hole in the old dam that connects to the newer lake that flooded the bottom of the dam on the old lake). Anyone familiar with the H260 knows that rudders can be a weak point. Well I get hit with a large gust and at that point (least opportune, going through the pass) I hear a snap and the boat immediately and quickly broaches. The rudder had snapped at the top (normal failure point from what I can tell) and the down haul line was now dragging the blade, right under my outboard. Now for the lessons learned and what kept me off the rocks. 1) Practice sailing without a rudder, in the open where there is nothing to hit. It’s possible to do basic steering with sail balance but it is not always strait forward. On my H260 the jib is very easily overpowered by the main (even reefed) and the boat has some weather helm even under jib. By back winding the jib it puts pressure on the bow to fall off allowing a turn in that direction but also robbing speed. Then play the main to point up or fall off as needed. 2) Always carry a knife. You never know when you may need to cut something free. Serrated blades cut lines faster. 3) The ability to steer an outboard is great, especially when it comes time to dock. The downside is that steering the boat with the outboard and no rudder is not an easy task. It handles very differently so it is a good idea to practice when not in an emergency situation. My boat gets a little hard to keep strait if you motor too quickly and your arm gets tired steering it. I think I will start practicing this occasionally. 3.5) Make sure you have enough gas. This goes for any time you go out. It would have really sucked to run out of gas. 4) Carry a horn. It makes crossing a fleet of fast moving boats easier if you signal to them that you do not plan to stand down. By losing steering you are under distress. Do what you have to but be able to let others know that. 5) Have an anchor readily available to deploy. In my situation it was not possible to immediately anchor because as the rode ran out enough to hold I would have been up on the rocks. If you are far enough away though or can get the room and have other issues the option to set the parking brake is a really good one. 6) With the legend of the H260, carry a spare temporary rudder. It doesn't have to be huge and able to sail on. If it effective enough for motoring your day just got easier and more familiar. The process of removing and replacing the rudder on the H260 is pretty quick and easy. There is a place in the bow of the H260 left over from the H26 where a cockpit table was housed. I'm thinking that is a great out of the way place for an emergency rudder. I plan to build one out of wood and leave it up there. Overall it was a bitch of a day but things could have gone much worse. I posted this in the All Sailors forum because, although I reference the H260, everyone should think about what they would do given their and their boats capabilities. If you plan for the worse the day of reckoning is much less dramatic.
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Great lesson told. . . .
and with good ideas. Thanks for sharing. Still better than working or almost anything else that I can think of. Well there is one thing.
and with good ideas. Thanks for sharing. Still better than working or almost anything else that I can think of. Well there is one thing.
If I lose my rudder, I'm screwed.
Of course, if anything manages to get through the keel to the rudder, that'll be the least of my worries.
Of course, if anything manages to get through the keel to the rudder, that'll be the least of my worries.
The biggest lesson you didn't learn
is not to fight the puff with the tiller. When you get a puff your angle of heel increases and the weather couple (Weather Helm) increases greatly . you can fight it by applying lots of rudder which puts on the breaks and loads the rudder to the point of breaking, You could pinch up (play the Puff) to spill the extra wind, or dump the main by letting the traveller or mainsheet go (or both) The beginning helmsman uses the tiller, the racer plays the puff (within Reason) and the typical experienced cruiser dumps the main. You are going to learn to avoid trying to correct weather helm with the rudder. Joe S
is not to fight the puff with the tiller. When you get a puff your angle of heel increases and the weather couple (Weather Helm) increases greatly . you can fight it by applying lots of rudder which puts on the breaks and loads the rudder to the point of breaking, You could pinch up (play the Puff) to spill the extra wind, or dump the main by letting the traveller or mainsheet go (or both) The beginning helmsman uses the tiller, the racer plays the puff (within Reason) and the typical experienced cruiser dumps the main. You are going to learn to avoid trying to correct weather helm with the rudder. Joe S
B&R
With the B&R rig the most you can dump the main is to 120*, then it sits on/hits the shrouds. With a broad reach, the main was already out about as much as it could go. Given the tighter waters pinching up wasn't a good option. The main was reefed and all puffs up to that point weren't nearly as large as the one that got me.
With the B&R rig the most you can dump the main is to 120*, then it sits on/hits the shrouds. With a broad reach, the main was already out about as much as it could go. Given the tighter waters pinching up wasn't a good option. The main was reefed and all puffs up to that point weren't nearly as large as the one that got me.
OK I'l give you the benefit of the doubt.
It has actually happened to me, (the knockdown part I mean) but it always seems better to tell someone else about it. Joe S
It has actually happened to me, (the knockdown part I mean) but it always seems better to tell someone else about it. Joe S
- Jan 22, 2008
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was your motor running at the time of the rudder failure?
I don't know the size of the gap you were sailing through, but my thought if I were in a similar situation, (restricted passage) I would have the motor running on standby at the very least, and the sails not working (down or in irons). I think the situation is akin to entering the marina under sail... it can be done, but I would want my standby ready to go at a moments notice. I have lost control in situations like this before, not because of a breakdown, but just a simple gust or change in wind direction that played with the boat in a congested area. (Yes I did make contact with a couple of other boats, and of course there were a few people who caught the spectacle... that's how I learned my lesson. Thanks for sharing yours.
I don't know the size of the gap you were sailing through, but my thought if I were in a similar situation, (restricted passage) I would have the motor running on standby at the very least, and the sails not working (down or in irons). I think the situation is akin to entering the marina under sail... it can be done, but I would want my standby ready to go at a moments notice. I have lost control in situations like this before, not because of a breakdown, but just a simple gust or change in wind direction that played with the boat in a congested area. (Yes I did make contact with a couple of other boats, and of course there were a few people who caught the spectacle... that's how I learned my lesson. Thanks for sharing yours.
Prevention possible?
Glad you relayed that story. Good advice. Having the rudder break is bad, having to replace it on the water doesn’t sound good, but better than being rudderless. Had you looked at your rudder recently? I was contemplating the inspection route to detect the most minor cracks before total failure. I wonder if these rudders can just snap without showing any signs of stress? What year was your rudder? I was led to believe that Hunter had a bad batch of outsourced rudders and that problem had all been cleared up with rudders made properly as designed in later years. This breaking problem keeps cropping up ,so maybe it’s a basic design flaw or maybe the bad batch rudders are still out there.
Glad you relayed that story. Good advice. Having the rudder break is bad, having to replace it on the water doesn’t sound good, but better than being rudderless. Had you looked at your rudder recently? I was contemplating the inspection route to detect the most minor cracks before total failure. I wonder if these rudders can just snap without showing any signs of stress? What year was your rudder? I was led to believe that Hunter had a bad batch of outsourced rudders and that problem had all been cleared up with rudders made properly as designed in later years. This breaking problem keeps cropping up ,so maybe it’s a basic design flaw or maybe the bad batch rudders are still out there.
I had a rudder snap
On my old C22. Water gets in and rots the core. Fighting the puff is not the real culprit. The rudder fails because the core is rotted. Closer insection and replacemetn or repair of any crackerd rudder is the answer. In my case we lowered the sails and motored in. Sounds like you handled it well. Joe, I usually let the main out and depower in a strong puff. By playing the puff do you mean turning into the wind a bit? Thanks
On my old C22. Water gets in and rots the core. Fighting the puff is not the real culprit. The rudder fails because the core is rotted. Closer insection and replacemetn or repair of any crackerd rudder is the answer. In my case we lowered the sails and motored in. Sounds like you handled it well. Joe, I usually let the main out and depower in a strong puff. By playing the puff do you mean turning into the wind a bit? Thanks
NautiDuck (Randy K), yes, Racing helmsmen do it all the time.
When the puff hits you have excess wind that will give you the same angle of heel and boat speed for a few seconds even if you pinch up. You keep the boat in balance and can gain a quarter to a half of a boat length to weather on almost every puff. The alternatives are to dump the main and gain nothing, or fight the helm with the rudder and lose ground by slowing. If the puff lasts for more than a few seconds though you will have to fall back to your previous heading or you will lose speed. I am not trying to encourage pinching as a regular diet because it is not the way to sail normally, but in those puffs, it sure can pay dividends. It's often called working to weather. Joe S
When the puff hits you have excess wind that will give you the same angle of heel and boat speed for a few seconds even if you pinch up. You keep the boat in balance and can gain a quarter to a half of a boat length to weather on almost every puff. The alternatives are to dump the main and gain nothing, or fight the helm with the rudder and lose ground by slowing. If the puff lasts for more than a few seconds though you will have to fall back to your previous heading or you will lose speed. I am not trying to encourage pinching as a regular diet because it is not the way to sail normally, but in those puffs, it sure can pay dividends. It's often called working to weather. Joe S
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Roger - No motor running at the time. I prefer to use it as little as possible. As the pass was through an old dam, it was a short transit through the pass with a quartering tailwind. Hal - the boat and rudder are a 2001. It is possible to inspect the outside but if you have made repairs and such in the past you might not know the condition of the core. George - your site is an excellent resource for H260 owners. I was considering switching to an Idasailor rudder, now the decision got a little easier. I see they only sell the 48" blade. Have you used it? The OEM blade is 55" and I was wondering if the shorter, yet true NACA, foil was just as effective if not more so?
Roger - No motor running at the time. I prefer to use it as little as possible. As the pass was through an old dam, it was a short transit through the pass with a quartering tailwind. Hal - the boat and rudder are a 2001. It is possible to inspect the outside but if you have made repairs and such in the past you might not know the condition of the core. George - your site is an excellent resource for H260 owners. I was considering switching to an Idasailor rudder, now the decision got a little easier. I see they only sell the 48" blade. Have you used it? The OEM blade is 55" and I was wondering if the shorter, yet true NACA, foil was just as effective if not more so?
Ida Sailor Blade
IdaSailor has sold quite a few of these blades to H260 owners but I still have my two Foss Foam rudders. I keep patching them and will until one breakes. Back in May 2004 I talked to Joel, General Manager of IdaSailor about their blade. At that time they offered two rudder lengths for the H260 because their original market surveys and on-the-water prototyping indicated that the Hunter did not need a rudder as long as the original if the airfoil shape and lift was improved. There was a consensus among the various owners they talked with that the draft being reduced would be a big advantage. According to Joel the 48" hunter blade that they produce outperforms the original, hands down, with the benefit of an decrease in draft. Once in production and selling the parts, they initially found that there was more demand for the original length blade; however, since then they apparently have decided to only offer the short version. My guess is if you really wanted the longer one you could get it. Joel Santarone General Manager IdaSailor Marine www.idasailor.com 208-375-2204 Shop 866-400-2204 I have not heard of any complaints about the shorter blade so maybe we'll get a few comments here. My humble opinion: I agree with Joel that the blade does not have to be so long. If you watch your rudder underway, you'll see it bend a little. It is possible the shorter length is stressed less and not so prone to snapping off. Unless of course you are John B. who seems to have a knack for trashing rudders...
IdaSailor has sold quite a few of these blades to H260 owners but I still have my two Foss Foam rudders. I keep patching them and will until one breakes. Back in May 2004 I talked to Joel, General Manager of IdaSailor about their blade. At that time they offered two rudder lengths for the H260 because their original market surveys and on-the-water prototyping indicated that the Hunter did not need a rudder as long as the original if the airfoil shape and lift was improved. There was a consensus among the various owners they talked with that the draft being reduced would be a big advantage. According to Joel the 48" hunter blade that they produce outperforms the original, hands down, with the benefit of an decrease in draft. Once in production and selling the parts, they initially found that there was more demand for the original length blade; however, since then they apparently have decided to only offer the short version. My guess is if you really wanted the longer one you could get it. Joel Santarone General Manager IdaSailor Marine www.idasailor.com 208-375-2204 Shop 866-400-2204 I have not heard of any complaints about the shorter blade so maybe we'll get a few comments here. My humble opinion: I agree with Joel that the blade does not have to be so long. If you watch your rudder underway, you'll see it bend a little. It is possible the shorter length is stressed less and not so prone to snapping off. Unless of course you are John B. who seems to have a knack for trashing rudders...
Switched back
When I puchased my shorter Idasailor rudder they were no longer making the long version. I used the new rudder for a season but have now switched back to the original rudder. The Idasailor product is very nice for everything except the down wind run. I'll keep it as an expensive back up. But with my spinnaker I got rounded up and felt the rudder contributed to the situation. The other obvious factors being the size of the sail & my driving. But the loss of control came much sooner and without any hint of notice.
When I puchased my shorter Idasailor rudder they were no longer making the long version. I used the new rudder for a season but have now switched back to the original rudder. The Idasailor product is very nice for everything except the down wind run. I'll keep it as an expensive back up. But with my spinnaker I got rounded up and felt the rudder contributed to the situation. The other obvious factors being the size of the sail & my driving. But the loss of control came much sooner and without any hint of notice.
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