Legal Question....Outrageous bills?

[Bad Obsession]

Okay....here is the story. This is happening at a Marina in Virginia (I will disclose the location later on). I bought an autohelm for my boat. I called a semi-local marina and asked about installation. They advised me that they could do the job but they had never done one before. I asked for a quote. They said that they couldn't provide a quote because they haven't done one before and they would be learning as they went. They said that it would be a "reasonable" price for the install. Feeling that I could trust their word I said okay and took my boat to them to do the work. After my boat had set around for two weeks, I got a call from them. They were about to start the install but they were unsure how to do the rudder sensor. They asked me to come down to the marina and talk to them about it.I made the 1.5 hour drive to the marina. I looked at the set up and figured out how to install the rudder sensor before the mechanic came. I told him about my idea and the mechanic agreed that it would work. I was with him the whole time when the sensor was installed (three hours). I had a previous commitment so I made the 1.5 hour drive home and left them to finish up (those guys worked so darn slow also).The day before yesterday I had to call the marina. They said that the install was done but they didn't have the bill. I called the marina this morning and they said that they still haven't made a bill for this job. I called the marina again this afternoon and they still didn't have a bill. They did advise me that they could give me a rough guess. THey came back with the sum of $1000 plus dollars! They told me that they had to work on the boat for 10 hours to put this autohelm on the boat! At this point I am furious. They never had given me an estimate when I asked numerous times for one....All they said is that it would be reasonable. When I left they said that it really wasn't too much work left to do on the boat. I am thinking that this job should have been about 6 to 8 hours of work. At the bare minimum it shouldn't have cost more than $800. The unit itself wasn't much more than the install. Had I known what they were going to charge me I would have NEVER taken the boat there! I am wondering what legal recourse I have on this matter. I am thinking about paying the bill and charging them a "Consulting Fee" for the fact I had to drive 3 hours and work on the job, that I was paying them to do, for 3 hours because they had "questions" about. I am really ticked at these guys and I WILL NOT DO BUSINESS with them again! This practice, at the bare minimum, is unethical.Any questions, comments, or suggestions are encouraged.

 

[sailortonyb]

Sorry to Hear

I think you should have backed out when they said they never did one before. Too late now, but back to your original question....you are pretty much stuck with the bill. If it went even to small claims court, after the lieing that will take place, it will all boil down tothey told you they never did it before and you authorized the work to be done. How could they give you an estimate, if they never did it before. Remember, the judge is a disinterested third party and in court, fair and unfair, and right and wrong dont have anything to do with 'legal and laws'

 

[Bad Obsession]

More Info

I wasn't too upset by the fact that they had never done one....this is a brand-new to the market unit. I figured that not many places have done them.It is true that the judge is an unbiased third party....but civil court is a mere preponderance of the evidence. If they want to stick an outrageous bill on me...then I should be able to charge them the consulting fees because they didn't know how to do the work until I went there. It is just a thought and I hope that they are prepaired to negociate.I do agree that I am probably stuck with an outrageous bill, but I will try to lesson it some. Futhermore they will have to go through the gauntlet because I don't think many people will use them once they know my story!

 

[Ross]

Call the supplier and ask about the

installation time for skilled workers on a first time installation. If the factory is within twenty percent of the yard time, pay the bill. otherwise Next time learn a trade.

 

[Herb Parsons]

Gotta Agree with Tony

You should have, at a minimum, given them a max amount. Anytime someone says they can only give me a "rough estimate", I tell them to call me if it's going to .01 more. If they tell me they can't give me an estimate, I give them a "call me" number.I think you'd be hard pressed to prove to a judge that 25% above your "reasonable price" of $800 is "outrageous".

 

[Don]

Are you kidding

From what you describe, they told you they didn't know the cost, hadn't had experience and never gave you anything in writing nor did you insist upon it. Now, you are upset over what they want ($1000) and your version of the charge ($800). My suggestion is to hope you never get to Small Claims Court and if you ever do, don't ever mention you feel $800 is appropriate since you'll be out the difference

 

[Ross]

Keep in mind that the yard is entitled to a

profit. I charge more for my work if the owner supplies the material than I charge if I supply the material because I take a profit on the cost of the material. If I make an error and screw up a part that I bought I don't lose because of the mark=up that I am entitled to but if the owner has supplied all of the pieces and just wants my labor, I tell him up front that he is responcible for the parts needed to complete the job. There have been many times that I have taken on a job open ended time and material. If they trust me it works If they don't they find some one else.

 

[Scott]

You may be able to negotiate ...

a better price if you keep the argument civil. I understand why you are angry. You'll end up paying more than you think you should but maybe you can reason with them based on the circumstances and get a reduction off what they are thinking if you don't appear too unflexible or abusive. I am not insinuating that you would be obnoxious; but remember, you may not be done yet. How do you know the install works? You should be thinking ahead about a guarantee from them in case you have problems.Nothing would make me more upset than paying too much, making an enemy, and then finding out that the install isn't quite right! At least, if you are sure about the install, the worst case is that you spent too much.

 

[Napa Ed]

You stepped in it

Sorry, but I don't think you have much reason to complain. From what you wrote, they were upfront about their lack of experience. If their hourly rates are posted, that's it. You pay for their time. If you want a better price, try a shop with the experience to install in less time.The yard that has done work for me has an hourly rate. If there are two workers, it's the hourly rate times two. Doesn't take much time to rack up a big bill.They once quoted me about $125 to install 6 screws with nuts. One guy on the outside with a screwdriver, on guy on the inside holding the nut for 45 minutes labor times two. They also itemized the screws and sikaflex. I opted out.

 

[Honeyman]

Can you say...

SCREWED!!! Can NOT believe this is a real post.

 

[chief14326]

Screwed as well

I was in a similar situation a few years back. I had purchased a boat through a broker and the boat needed a new rudder. I was not anywhere my home port (not that would have made much difference) but was at a reputable marina. They started the job, but ran into trouble at the completion. The rudder would not line up for the final assembly. They had two mechanics working side by side for three hours trying to get the holes to line up. Turns out they never bothered to align the holes correctly, only "eye ball" than drill the SS shaft. They claimed the rudder shaft was bent, and that is why the job did not go as expected and blamed the rudder company. In fact I did supply the parts for the job.The following year the rudder company sent me a brand new rudder, which I drilled and installed myself. When I returned the old one they found nothing wrong with it. In the end the boat was on the Travelift, and they would not splash until I went to the yard office to pay the bill. To say I was shocked would be an understatement. As a previous post indicated I was charged quite a bit more than the estimate. The reason, the additional man working along with the primary mechanic doubled the labor costs. I also had authorized them to do some other mechanical work, such as oil change, all filters and some hoses. I could not believe the actual bill and keep it around for laughs. They charged me for every piece of material used, from throwaway rags, disposable gloves, oil zorb. The total cost for changing the oil, antifreeze and cleaning out the Heat Exchanger was $870.00 dollars. The estimate on the rudder labor was $200.00, actual labor charge was $544.00. I paid the bill, left and than sent off an angry e mail to the parent company. I also sent a letter to Practical Sailor(which they printed) praising the rudder company for standing behind their product, and slamming by name the Marina that did the shoddy work. Moral of the story; do as much work yourself as possible. Make use of forums such as this one to learn from others. Remember; when pirates came ashore, they opened up marinas. Don't feel too bad, it happens to all of us no matter how careful. Just be more careful next time, and use this as a painful and expensive learning experience.

 

[Drew]

Ouch

Obsession - This is a bummer man. I don't see an "out" on this except to try and negotiate with these clowns. I'd be as good natured as possible about it. If you can establish what "fair market" value is for this job, by getting written estimates from other yards, you can pay the bill "under protest," get your boat back and go to small claims court - write "Paid Under Protest" on your check or money order.The other thing to consider is whether the job was done right - if there are problems it could wind up costing even more. Many credit card issuers "insure" purchases - I would investigate that and maybe pay the bill with a card that will cover future problems - just a thought.Finally, I know you are in Colonial Beach - I highly recommend the yard at Aqualand, under the 301 bridge on the MD side. The marina itself is pretty raunchy but Pete Samuelson runs the yard as a separate business - "Stem to Stearn, Inc." He has not touched my boat without full disclosure of costs, up-front, nor will he touch a boat if the job is out of his league. I don't know what that league might be, but there you have it. If you need a local guy you can count on, go find Pete.

 

[sailaway78]

Labor

I am a pretty fair mechanic in my own right. Last fall I installed a new auto pilot on a friends boat. I had only installed one auto pilot before this time. I did have to make the mounting system as the boat did not have a pedestal, and it was a pedestal mount unit. Anyway, I spent two days on this little project, and it did not have a rudder sensor. So I am not sure I would consider ten hours as overly excessive.

 

[NautiDuck]

Go sailing

No offense but how angry do you want to be over $200? You have no good recourse. Take it as a life lesson and go out and enjoy that new autohelm.

 

[Stu Jackson]

but they were unsure how to do the rudder sensor.

Dang, that's the giveaway.Even Autohelm hasn't figured THAT one out!!!

 

[John]

maybe a little two steep

I think that if the labor is not more then the parts your ok .I do all my own work and it takes me years to get new parts on my boat .Last year i wanted sound proofing, a new muffler, and a new prop,and i wanted to replace my alt bracket becouse it was broken and welded twice.I think this list took three weekends to finish and the alt bracket took 20 mins the sound proofing took 2 hrs the muffler took about 2 1/2 hrs and the old prop was off and the new prop was on by the time my buddy came back with the coffee but it takes time to get the parts and time to drag the stuff out to the boat .all my projects went ok but the alt needed a rebuild wial it was out .my prop is still not wright my yard broak all the bolts off my shaft coupler and we could not get it off or lock it on so i cut it out and the guys put in a sweet ss shaft new coupler cutless bearing and zinc i did some of the work and then they alined the moter . It still has a bad vibration and im out 4 weeks of good sailing Im down about 1800 bucks plus yard bills.the guys in the crane just laugh wile they yank my boat in and out of the water@$125 a shot. Now the water warmed up to around 67oso im in the drink swaping out props.I mite have to put the old one back on.plus the yard allmost sunk my boat becouse they did not pack the stuffing box and after 20 mins of motering the boat was filling up with water they pushed the packing out when they put the new shaft in ect, ect,ect I just love sailing I think if your auto helm is working i would just go sailing . John

 

[Stu Jackson]

Bad Obsession??????????????

Now there's a heartwarming name to begin with...Did the yard guys see you coming???Would you do this with your house or your car?Why blame it on the boat? So many people leave logic behind when it's their boat instead of their other possessions.John LGNY gave the most appropriate answer, with grate speeling.C'mon....whinerYou do realize, don't you, that whatever you put on, or have put on, your boat, is basically a safety issue, because once you get out there, there ain't no mechanics.OH? "Legal recourse?" Sue yourself for being stupid.

 

[Bad Obsession]

Hey Stu

There is always someone who likes to open their mouth and insert their foot! If you don't have any positive suggestions or descent to say, don't comment. An autopilot is not a safety issue. If it isn't working right you just turn off the power.

 

[Bad Obsession]

Total bill and the finished story

I just got my boat back, yesterday. The total bill came to $1358.00. This whole thing was just a really irritating experience. When I started talking to the owner about the bill they said "You never asked for an estimate." Darn.....I didn't ask for an estimate....I asked 6 times for a price on how much it would cost to have the unit put in. They didn't want to give me a price because they have never installed the S1. After dealing with them....I don't think that they have ever installed an autohelm (I knew as much about it as they did). To make matters worse they left the windows opened on my boat. The salon cushions were soaking wet. They boat yard did have to send the cushions off to be professionally cleaned etc. I finally got ahold of Raymarine. I still haven't finished the calibrations on the unit and I didn't have time to do them yesterday (The weather was absolutely horrible and I just wanted to get my boat home). The tech from Raymarine was shocked when I told him about this incident. He couldn't believe that it took them a supposed 14 hours to install the unit.The final retrospect is this: Don't trust a rinky-dink marina to do a job like this, find a place with a descent reputation.I can't wait to get this unit working property.

 

[Acostic]

Bottom line is..

Don't buy a boat if you can't do the work yourself & don't complain afer all it is a boat. Yes the price seems high but they probably saw you coming a mile away..... My boat yard rates all customers on perceived abilty to pay and charges accordingly. Bottom line is learn to DIY!!!!