Thinking about all that might go wrong on a boat got me to wondering about legal liability. Do you think it is a problem?? Do you have guests sign a release??? If so would you provide us with a copy or at least key points to cover. I don't think that anyone would sue me after falling and breaking something or some other accident but it could happen. I was thinking of something a little humorous that would be legal. Example; I release ___________________ and heirs of all liability for anything that might happen to me while on their boat the Titanic. I acknowledge that they are incompetent sailors with no sense of safety or seamanship. I further acknowledge that their boat is in a sad state of disrepair and is likely to sink and or break at any time. It is a fire hazard and a menace to navigation...........I am going boating with them against my better judgment and assume all risks leaving them blameless for whatever might happen to me.
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You worry too much
If you don't trust the people you take sailing then don't. I don't care how humorous you make it, if you ask them to sign it, your firendship is in trouble. Just my 2 cents Tim R
If you don't trust the people you take sailing then don't. I don't care how humorous you make it, if you ask them to sign it, your firendship is in trouble. Just my 2 cents Tim R
dont matter
one thing Ive learned in my adult life is any kind of contract/hold harmless/liability release, etc, etc doesnt matter at all if it comes to a disagreement. when the lawyers get involved, the only thing that matters is what the man in the black robe sitting behind the big desk has to say!
one thing Ive learned in my adult life is any kind of contract/hold harmless/liability release, etc, etc doesnt matter at all if it comes to a disagreement. when the lawyers get involved, the only thing that matters is what the man in the black robe sitting behind the big desk has to say!
I agree with Dan
Don't even bother. Such a document would be worthless in court. Even if it was a full-blown 20 page 'hold-harmless' agreement that was signed in front of a notary it wouldn't save you a bit. A friend of mines four-wheeling club used to offer beginner courses for novice 'wheelers and they did the whole routine with 'liability waivers'. Didn't help them a bit when some yahoo bent his truck during the class and sued them for damages, even though it was entirely his own fault. That's why they quit doing the classes. (leave it to some knucklehead flatlander cityboy to screw things up for everyone) Honestly, you'd be a lot better-off with a good insurance policy and a lot of discretion about who you let on your boat.
Don't even bother. Such a document would be worthless in court. Even if it was a full-blown 20 page 'hold-harmless' agreement that was signed in front of a notary it wouldn't save you a bit. A friend of mines four-wheeling club used to offer beginner courses for novice 'wheelers and they did the whole routine with 'liability waivers'. Didn't help them a bit when some yahoo bent his truck during the class and sued them for damages, even though it was entirely his own fault. That's why they quit doing the classes. (leave it to some knucklehead flatlander cityboy to screw things up for everyone) Honestly, you'd be a lot better-off with a good insurance policy and a lot of discretion about who you let on your boat.
My Take on this
I disagree to a point. If you get it signed you aren't responsible for things like them getting drunk and falling overboard. Now, if you supply the beer it's your fault or if they stumble into a faulty lifeline and it breaks and they fall overboard it's your fault.They'd have to prove negligence on your part (which isn't all that hard to do on a sailboat0 and that's where the attornies have a field day. In the case of the four wheeler class mentioned below they are responsible because they took a person with no experience and agreed to teach him therefore accepting liability for his health and welfare. Of course, if my friends ask me to sign a waiver I'm outta there...... Just my thoughts! Ron
I disagree to a point. If you get it signed you aren't responsible for things like them getting drunk and falling overboard. Now, if you supply the beer it's your fault or if they stumble into a faulty lifeline and it breaks and they fall overboard it's your fault.They'd have to prove negligence on your part (which isn't all that hard to do on a sailboat0 and that's where the attornies have a field day. In the case of the four wheeler class mentioned below they are responsible because they took a person with no experience and agreed to teach him therefore accepting liability for his health and welfare. Of course, if my friends ask me to sign a waiver I'm outta there...... Just my thoughts! Ron
Liability Insurance
Hi Tom, I carry liability and also an additional $1 million umbrella policy. Will not stop a suit but I have the insurance to keep me sailing while the lawyers figure it out damages. Don't be naive - if some gets hurt they could sue. May be a bit more difficuilt for your wife or children to sue you but simple for anyone else. Have enough insurance - let the lawyers worry about resolution if an accident happens.
Hi Tom, I carry liability and also an additional $1 million umbrella policy. Will not stop a suit but I have the insurance to keep me sailing while the lawyers figure it out damages. Don't be naive - if some gets hurt they could sue. May be a bit more difficuilt for your wife or children to sue you but simple for anyone else. Have enough insurance - let the lawyers worry about resolution if an accident happens.
You still need insurance
because, though liability releases are generally valid, they do not prevent a suit being started. This is especially true where the injuries are significant. Even if there is only a 5% chance of invalidating the release, if the damages/injuries are above $100,000, suit will surely be filed. The cost of prevailing and having the suit dismissed is going to be in the $5,000 to $15,000 range. So in practice the release will limit liability to cost of suit dismissal, which is still significant when compared to the cost of liability insurance. Scott
because, though liability releases are generally valid, they do not prevent a suit being started. This is especially true where the injuries are significant. Even if there is only a 5% chance of invalidating the release, if the damages/injuries are above $100,000, suit will surely be filed. The cost of prevailing and having the suit dismissed is going to be in the $5,000 to $15,000 range. So in practice the release will limit liability to cost of suit dismissal, which is still significant when compared to the cost of liability insurance. Scott
The Law is a humorless Lot
Tom. I am afraid your attempt at humor would be a liability in court. You are expected to be "prudent and reasonable" in your actions. In your release you are admitiing in writing to be neither. In the event of serious injury or death you would NOT want this document offered in evidence. That's my 2 cents.
Tom. I am afraid your attempt at humor would be a liability in court. You are expected to be "prudent and reasonable" in your actions. In your release you are admitiing in writing to be neither. In the event of serious injury or death you would NOT want this document offered in evidence. That's my 2 cents.
It is worth the paper.
Such waivers do not prevent a lawsuit in the event of serious personal loss. What they will do is reduce the amount of liability. The fact that you asked the person to sign a waiver is a warning that in any such venture there is an element of risk. If the person signs it, they are then acknowledging this fact and as a result awards will be reduced.
Such waivers do not prevent a lawsuit in the event of serious personal loss. What they will do is reduce the amount of liability. The fact that you asked the person to sign a waiver is a warning that in any such venture there is an element of risk. If the person signs it, they are then acknowledging this fact and as a result awards will be reduced.
If you state up front that you are making
no claims of your ability or the suitability of your vessel it would seem to be to your advantage. They say "I thought he knew what he was doing" you pull out where they signed stating that they know you are an idiot. They say "I thought it was a safe and seaworthy vessel". You show where they signed a statement that you made no claims that the boat was safe or seaworthy. We have liability insurance with BoatUS. I hate this whole liability issue especially among friends. But I have always been amazed at how people can change when a little money is involved.
no claims of your ability or the suitability of your vessel it would seem to be to your advantage. They say "I thought he knew what he was doing" you pull out where they signed stating that they know you are an idiot. They say "I thought it was a safe and seaworthy vessel". You show where they signed a statement that you made no claims that the boat was safe or seaworthy. We have liability insurance with BoatUS. I hate this whole liability issue especially among friends. But I have always been amazed at how people can change when a little money is involved.
May not be the "Friend" that Sues
If your friend has medical insurance and files a claim due to an injury the guys with the medical insurance may go after the policy on the home, car, boat, or where ever the accident happened.
If your friend has medical insurance and files a claim due to an injury the guys with the medical insurance may go after the policy on the home, car, boat, or where ever the accident happened.
unless someone here is an expert in...
admiralty law (which I am not) everyone is just guessing. The law of the sea comes from an antiquated body of law that rarely fits modern day life (ex: towing/salvage) but is applied to it none the less. Whatever might work for your backyard swimming pool is unlikely to be applicable to your boat. You are the captain of the ship and I suspect the law will hold you to it, regardless of the paperwork you have. Taking someone out on "your" boat is not like teaching someone to 4 wheel on the ground, or even inviting them over to swim in your pool. They have the opportunity to leave or stop participating in the latter 2 situations. There are a number of legal theories that might arise (assumption of risk, inherently dangerous activity, etc...) but whether these apply at sea is anyone's guess. That is unless someone here is an expert in admiralty law.... if so please let us know your thoughts.
admiralty law (which I am not) everyone is just guessing. The law of the sea comes from an antiquated body of law that rarely fits modern day life (ex: towing/salvage) but is applied to it none the less. Whatever might work for your backyard swimming pool is unlikely to be applicable to your boat. You are the captain of the ship and I suspect the law will hold you to it, regardless of the paperwork you have. Taking someone out on "your" boat is not like teaching someone to 4 wheel on the ground, or even inviting them over to swim in your pool. They have the opportunity to leave or stop participating in the latter 2 situations. There are a number of legal theories that might arise (assumption of risk, inherently dangerous activity, etc...) but whether these apply at sea is anyone's guess. That is unless someone here is an expert in admiralty law.... if so please let us know your thoughts.
admiralty law
unless work related ie USL&H or Harbor Act does have anything to do with a slip and fall or simalar liability suits involving pleasure craft. Colin, this aint Canada. recently a guy sued a motorhome company and won. he set his cruise control and went to the back to make some coffee. the motorhome ran off the road, he sued and won. they were suppose to warm him that his cruise control was not a auto pilot! here again it is what the man in the black robe sitting behind the big desk and/or the jury has to say that is binding!
unless work related ie USL&H or Harbor Act does have anything to do with a slip and fall or simalar liability suits involving pleasure craft. Colin, this aint Canada. recently a guy sued a motorhome company and won. he set his cruise control and went to the back to make some coffee. the motorhome ran off the road, he sued and won. they were suppose to warm him that his cruise control was not a auto pilot! here again it is what the man in the black robe sitting behind the big desk and/or the jury has to say that is binding!
yes, sorry I did mean
does not. but, to take it a little further. anyone can sue anyone for any thing wheter the suit is brought under Maritime Law or not. Im not a lawyer or "expert". but, I am 52 years old and have seen alot of lawsuits filed for some of the stupidest reasons. I have seen some that never should have seen the light of day that were million $$$ winners and have seen other where some poor SOB got raked over the coals because the other guys had a better lawyer and more money. our justice system sometimes is not very just!
does not. but, to take it a little further. anyone can sue anyone for any thing wheter the suit is brought under Maritime Law or not. Im not a lawyer or "expert". but, I am 52 years old and have seen alot of lawsuits filed for some of the stupidest reasons. I have seen some that never should have seen the light of day that were million $$$ winners and have seen other where some poor SOB got raked over the coals because the other guys had a better lawyer and more money. our justice system sometimes is not very just!
"Cruise control on RV" is urban myth...
Here's the Snopes report: http://www.snopes.com/autos/techno/cruise.asp
Here's the Snopes report: http://www.snopes.com/autos/techno/cruise.asp
It does happen
Remember the one where a guest helping dock stepped through an open hatch and broke a hip. Or maybe the time where the boat clipped the bow of a moored yacht. Or dropping the digital camera overboard, or slid off the trailer onto the ramp. Of course, there's also the question of liability for pollution caused by a sinking... As a claims rep that deals with this sort of thing all I can say is an umbrella policy is really, really cheap.
Remember the one where a guest helping dock stepped through an open hatch and broke a hip. Or maybe the time where the boat clipped the bow of a moored yacht. Or dropping the digital camera overboard, or slid off the trailer onto the ramp. Of course, there's also the question of liability for pollution caused by a sinking... As a claims rep that deals with this sort of thing all I can say is an umbrella policy is really, really cheap.
I Think
Well, sometimes I think and this time I think a lot of what gets posted here is "Urban Legend." Why don't people do some hands on investigation or testing before they spout everything as true fact? "There was this guy who took levetation training then sued and got $2,000,000 because he could float off the ground." Bottom line is still; don't take people on your boat if you don't trust them and keep that insurance policy handy even if you do!
Well, sometimes I think and this time I think a lot of what gets posted here is "Urban Legend." Why don't people do some hands on investigation or testing before they spout everything as true fact? "There was this guy who took levetation training then sued and got $2,000,000 because he could float off the ground." Bottom line is still; don't take people on your boat if you don't trust them and keep that insurance policy handy even if you do!
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