Lee Helm and an old Main sail

[MikeNieto]

Hey all,

I posted a thread a while ago about having trouble pointing on my old fixed keel 22. After being in the water a few times I realized that when I trimmed the jib sail tight, the boat developed a strong lee helm and fell off from the wind. My problem was sail balance. For some reason, my main sail doesn't seem to be providing enought power up wind to balance the jib.

I attemped to correct the Lee helm problem (not to safe and annoying when trying to head into the wind) with several things:

- I made sure that the main was raised with the boomvang, outhaul, and the cunningham slack, using my shoulder to lift the boom within the slot on the mast. When the halyard reached it limit, I used the aforementioned lines to tighten the sail, looking for stretch marks on the raised sail to adjust for proper sail shape.

- I eased the forestay and tightened the backstay.

- a few other minor mods to pull the center of effort aft.

Although it helped a little, I still have to ease (depower) the jib when sailing close hauled to keep it balanced with the main. The boat is a 76' and the sails are likely from that same year. Is it possible that the main sails are blown out?

Thanks,

Mike in San Diego

 

[sharps4590]

Good questions Mike. I'm new to this game so I'll be watching the replies as my sail looks a little baggy to me also. Thanks for asking it.

Vic

 

[watercolors II]

Lee helm is good.

Mike, a Catalina 22 will sail almost as good with just the head sail as with both sails up wind, so the problem is not with the main.

Trimming the jib sail tight is correct when going up wind, the stronger the wind the tighter you make it. You are not saying how strong the wind is?

I’m the fellow whom always talks about speed on this form, a slow boat will not point well and not sail well at all if the hull and appendages do not have a fairly smooth finish. The keel and rudder work more efficiently the faster you go, so being smooth is a big help with increasing speed.

The Catalina does have a lot of weather helm, more so than any of the other 22’s in it’s class. This may be a good thing, it keeps someone from getting into trouble because it will round up into the wind and sit flat on the water.

Helm pressure is the pull of the wind trying to turn the head sail or both sails into the wind, so you must steer the stern away from this pull on the bow to keep the boat going straight. THIS IS YOUR MOTOR for upwind and across the wind movement. Going down wind it is just the push of the wind. Your not falling off the wind, your steering on the edge of the wind, the edge is where the wind is pulling on the sail and not luffing it, the point where both telltales are flying straight back.

If helm pressure is so great that your turning the rudder more than 15 degrees then your stalling the hull with the rudder, thus your speed will drop and the boat will heal further. At this point you need to depower the sails.

First, ease the main sheet.
Next, tighten the backstay.
Third, move the jib cars back.

If none of this helps then reduce sail.

Raising the main, the nice thing about a Catalina the boom is not fixed to the mast, so you can lift the main clear to the top of the mast for power in light winds or keep the main sail lower on the mast, thus lowering the center of gravity, for high wind. Tightening the main and lessening the stretch marks is correct for up wind performance.

You need to sail behind someone when they are going upwind, make sure you do not pick a boat with their sails real loose, let them be your guide on how well your doing.

 

[paphman]

Mike, do you have any tell-tales on your sails? If you do what are they doing when you have lee helm ? If you do not have them I would add them right away. With out them you are quessing about your sail trim. Put them on and learn how to use them. It is not hard, and it will improve your sail trimming 200%. The Catalina 22 is not a boat known for lee helm. What size jib are you using? Can you give us anymore info?
Wave height, windspeed, etc.
Dale

 

[OldCat]

It is possible that your head sail is over sheeted, or old and of poor shape.

I read in one of the C22 tuning guides (North sails?) that a Genoa on a C22 should be sheeted ~2" off the spreader bar. This seems to work well for us. Add a bit more gap if your Genny is older and has some hook in the leech due to the UV cloth having stretched differently than the rest of the sail cloth.

[on edit: 2-3" is given in the guide, for medium winds. Here is a link: http://austinyachtclub.net/fleets/c22/c22tuning.htm. I tend to over sheet the Genoa in light winds, the guide says to let it out more]

Also, I have found the above most valuable with the Genoa cars in the mid to forward positions. When they are back in high winds, then upwind sheet nearly flat near the foot and the sail will be twisted off up at the spreaders and be further away from the spreader (I have a 130 Genoa).

My boat has fairly neutral helm when flat, at 30-40 degrees of heel, it has significant weather helm.

It would be interesting to hear if others have used or heard of the 2" off the spreader bar tuning tip, or what you think of this for the C22.

OC
tich tor ang tesmur

 

[Bilbo]

Ok, My position on this is
1) that they do mention that inboard tracks may be of help in adjusting the genny sail shape.
2) Trying to get the sail within 2" of the spreaders may be dependent on this issue of inboard tracks as the shape 9depth) of the genoa is going to be a bit different with a change in location. Especially if you are sheeting in this tight.
3) All of these settings are dependent upon apparent wind direction (Pointing). as the farther off the wind you go, the more you can let the genoa out...along with the angle of the main boom.
4) I prefer to sail with my slot behind the main sail at about a good proportional slot width all the way up and I mind my telltales and windex. This means that if my main has a bit of twist, I want some in the genoa as well.
I try to think that my genoa drives the wind behind the main for more lift and that the genoa also has some lift of it's own if the angle oof sail and it's draft is correct. Because the Genoa drives this air behind the main, the two sail angles are slightly different. Or. the main is sheeted in a bit more than the Genny.
If I'm sailing at 30-40 degrees of heel, I'm freaking out the wife and dogs. I've read in several places that about 15 degs heel is adequate for maximum drive with these C-22s.
Yesterday, we reached a 6.3 kts (GPS measurement) on the front side of a 2 ft wave on a point of sail somewhere between a beam reach and close hauled (Starboard tack). 135 Genoa and full main with ~15 mph breeze.

 

[OldCat]

3) All of these settings are dependent upon apparent wind direction (Pointing). as the farther off the wind you go, the more you can let the genoa out...along with the angle of the main boom.

Good point, I forgot to put in my post that the 2-3" off the spreader is for close hauled. Doh, I should have mentioned that, of course sails are sheeted out as one heads off wind.

If I'm sailing at 30-40 degrees of heel, I'm freaking out the wife and dogs. I've read in several places that about 15 degs heel is adequate for maximum drive with these C-22s.

Moderate heel is faster than 30-40 degrees of heel. However, I sail on a mountain foothill lake that has much more variable winds than most ocean locations. If I reef or flatten the sail for the last big gust, I might just sit still from being underpowered for quite a while. Most boats on our lake accept the compromises heel over in the bigger gusts - even racers in the lead can be seen well over when they hit. They don't seem to want to be underpowered by reefing - but if the Admiral is freaked out - then you have to take action. As you also do when the average wind is high.

Last time the Admiral was aboard and we went to 30+ degrees of heel, I sheeted out. I was admonished with "no guts, no glory". The second time, she asked me if I was trying to toss her overboard...

OC
tich tor ang tesmur

 

[Bilbo]

Good point, I forgot to put in my post that the 2-3" off the spreader is for close hauled. Doh, I should have mentioned that, of course sails are sheeted out as one heads off wind.

Actually they should put this on their sail trim web pages. I think that everybody assumes that alll of the newbies know this.

Moderate heel is faster than 30-40 degrees of heel. However, I sail on a mountain foothill lake that has much more variable winds than most ocean locations. If I reef or flatten the sail for the last big gust, I might just sit still from being underpowered for quite a while. Most boats on our lake accept the compromises heel over in the bigger gusts - even racers in the lead can be seen well over when they hit. They don't seem to want to be underpowered by reefing - but if the Admiral is freaked out - then you have to take action. As you also do when the average wind is high.

Well if you are willing to experience this. As you know then the helm is going to be variable depending on the angle of heel and the wind/boat speed. I'm wondering what the heeling angle is for the round-up experience. From what I've seen the rudder blade will begin to loose bite somewhere around 75-80 degs. What I try to do here on our flatland lake, is watch the water for the puffs. Since they are variable in strength and in direction around here, a bad puff that has clocked in from a different direction will either cause you to heel really far or on the other tack, to stop dead in irons. So, on a day like that, I will often be holding the jib sheet in my hand uncleated, main maybe next with the other hand with my leg wrapped over the tiller. Usually releasing one sheet is good enough to keep it from excess but sometimes we get some real gusts. I've kinda felt that after a time I can anticipate them but not always.

Last time the Admiral was aboard and we went to 30+ degrees of heel, I sheeted out. I was admonished with "no guts, no glory". The second time, she asked me if I was trying to toss her overboard...

aha a no-win situation. Something that I can understand. On Monday, my capn. was trying to nap on the port side in the cabin and even with a 20 deg. heel and some waves things can start shifting. I heard the crib boards fall onto her feet and she looked at me with a scowl. Then the cooler started sliding and she threw my left shoe past my head and over the stern.............