I have a 1986 Cal 28-2 #37. Several of the fixed ports are leaking. I really can't figure out how the glass is installed/removed. I pulled the frame off from the inside (after it broke in 2 spots because the frame was hopelessly stuck to the gasket), but that doesn't help with finding the attachment of the glass to the boat. Has anyone had any experience with removing/rebedding these ports?
Leaking port lights on Cal 28-2
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Removing fixed ports
Once you've removed the inside rings, clean/dig out any sealer that someone may have added from the inside. Get a 3" metal scraper with a solid handle and slightly round the corners if they are pointed and sharp. Set the scraper as deep in the outside trim ring as you can, and tap the scraper around the window with a hammer. Don't go nuts, but don't be afraid to be firm with the hammer. You'll feel when you've gotten through the sealant and are hitting the inside window frame. Do this all the way around the window. After you've done that, from inside the cabin, push firmly on the inside frame at a corner of the window until it starts to come out. Bumping it with the heal of your palm, or with a rubber mallet sometimes helps. Once you've got a corner loose, then work the window out. If you can't get a corner loose from pushing on the inside, then get your scraper and hammer back out and work it again until you can. Re/mounting the port, with clean surfaces, put your sealant on the port where the trim meets the frame, set the window in, and screw on the inside trim ring. Contact Mark Heacox at 951-735-7705 for replacement windows in glass or plastic. He does fixed ports, only.
Once you've removed the inside rings, clean/dig out any sealer that someone may have added from the inside. Get a 3" metal scraper with a solid handle and slightly round the corners if they are pointed and sharp. Set the scraper as deep in the outside trim ring as you can, and tap the scraper around the window with a hammer. Don't go nuts, but don't be afraid to be firm with the hammer. You'll feel when you've gotten through the sealant and are hitting the inside window frame. Do this all the way around the window. After you've done that, from inside the cabin, push firmly on the inside frame at a corner of the window until it starts to come out. Bumping it with the heal of your palm, or with a rubber mallet sometimes helps. Once you've got a corner loose, then work the window out. If you can't get a corner loose from pushing on the inside, then get your scraper and hammer back out and work it again until you can. Re/mounting the port, with clean surfaces, put your sealant on the port where the trim meets the frame, set the window in, and screw on the inside trim ring. Contact Mark Heacox at 951-735-7705 for replacement windows in glass or plastic. He does fixed ports, only.
R
Rich
Some things to watch out for
Smitty, the '80's Lear/Siegler Cal 28's have an earlier version of the Lewmar "Ocean" series hatches. Because of the difficulty of through-bolting (no working room between inner and outer liner) the factory bolted the hinges together and drilled out holes for the protruding nuts in the deck so that the hatch could be seated flat on the deck and then just screwed on. This means that when you go through the prying-out process that John describes you need to be careful working on the hinge side not to try to pound your way through those nuts. What you can expect to find: forward hatch (current Lewmar size 40, 16 9/16" square cutout)--the inner and outer liner will not have big gaps and be pretty well sealed. This hatch will be the easiest to fix. salon hatch (Current Lewmar size 20, about 7x13)--if water has been penetrating your cored deck at the screw holes you'll have to go through the ordeal of scraping out the rotted balsa, doing the epoxy repairs to the deck and hatch frame, and reconstructing the interior hatch frame (which requires taking down the hung ceiling to do right). If you've got water penetration in the balsa best to caulk this baby up on the deck side and undertake this job after fall layup, it will be one of those one-thing-leads-to-another nightmares. head hatch (also Lewmar size 20)--my experience with this was that a large gap between inner and outer liner, possibly to provide access to wiring along the outer edge, caused a lot of problems--it has to be filled before you can screw a new hatch back on. Some kind of very tough structural foam was used as filler in the manufacturing that I would dearly loved to use for this but can't find out what the product is. Smitty lives right down the road from Lewmar's factory hatch restorer in CT (think they're called "Hatchmasters"?) but it sounds to me like you've pretty much wrecked the original hatches--better to replace them altogether. I've used 2 Lewmar "low profile" hatches ($230 ea.) for salon/head and one "medium profile ($380) for forward. These are nice sturdy hatches with rounded edges and an easier do-it-yourself glass replacement system, but unfortunately the lower flange (which the standard Lewmar Ocean hatches don't have) may require some cutting fiberglass and forcing to seat in the opening.
Smitty, the '80's Lear/Siegler Cal 28's have an earlier version of the Lewmar "Ocean" series hatches. Because of the difficulty of through-bolting (no working room between inner and outer liner) the factory bolted the hinges together and drilled out holes for the protruding nuts in the deck so that the hatch could be seated flat on the deck and then just screwed on. This means that when you go through the prying-out process that John describes you need to be careful working on the hinge side not to try to pound your way through those nuts. What you can expect to find: forward hatch (current Lewmar size 40, 16 9/16" square cutout)--the inner and outer liner will not have big gaps and be pretty well sealed. This hatch will be the easiest to fix. salon hatch (Current Lewmar size 20, about 7x13)--if water has been penetrating your cored deck at the screw holes you'll have to go through the ordeal of scraping out the rotted balsa, doing the epoxy repairs to the deck and hatch frame, and reconstructing the interior hatch frame (which requires taking down the hung ceiling to do right). If you've got water penetration in the balsa best to caulk this baby up on the deck side and undertake this job after fall layup, it will be one of those one-thing-leads-to-another nightmares. head hatch (also Lewmar size 20)--my experience with this was that a large gap between inner and outer liner, possibly to provide access to wiring along the outer edge, caused a lot of problems--it has to be filled before you can screw a new hatch back on. Some kind of very tough structural foam was used as filler in the manufacturing that I would dearly loved to use for this but can't find out what the product is. Smitty lives right down the road from Lewmar's factory hatch restorer in CT (think they're called "Hatchmasters"?) but it sounds to me like you've pretty much wrecked the original hatches--better to replace them altogether. I've used 2 Lewmar "low profile" hatches ($230 ea.) for salon/head and one "medium profile ($380) for forward. These are nice sturdy hatches with rounded edges and an easier do-it-yourself glass replacement system, but unfortunately the lower flange (which the standard Lewmar Ocean hatches don't have) may require some cutting fiberglass and forcing to seat in the opening.
Thanks guys
John, I'm confused as I don't see anything that resembles a trim ring on the outside. The inside cutout (with the inner trim ring) is smaller than the outside cutout. On the outside, it appears that the fiberglass ends and the port glass begins. Should I just set the scraper at the border between fiberglass and port glass? There also doesn't appear to be an inside frame other than the trim ring. I've removed the inside trim ring. Unfortunately it broke in 2 places due to being stuck to the gasket. Rich, Thanks for the tips about the hatches, but I haven't gotten to them yet. They're probably next. I was silly enough to believe that the close size match of the Lewmar Ocean series would be direct replacements. Silly me ... I know about the guy in Norwalk that can do Lewmar hatch work, but I thought he was limited to reglazing. I guess that before I start on the hatches I'd better talk to him and see what he can do. As far as I can tell at the moment, only the forward hatch is leaking and it's a very small leak. The fixed port lights, on the other hand, have several leaks and they aren't so small. So, I thought I'd start there. That is to say, I think the leak I'm observing is coming from the forward fixed port light on the starboard side. It's really hard to say if that's where it's getting in, but that's where the water drips into the cabin from. I do have the headliners out and I can't see it coming anyplace else, so I'm assuming it's coming in the port seals. The thing making it difficult to be sure is it doesn't appear inside the boat till a while (15 - 30 min) after the rain (or hose). Rich, One more question. You previously mentioned replacing the headliners with a composite from home depot. The only thing I can find is a very thin (< 1/8") composite that's very flimsy. It doesn't appear that it would handle the unsupported span (up to 18") of the headliners without sagging. Am I looking at what you're talking about? The only thicker/stiffer stuff I could find was a hardboard backed material more like paneling. -Smitty
John, I'm confused as I don't see anything that resembles a trim ring on the outside. The inside cutout (with the inner trim ring) is smaller than the outside cutout. On the outside, it appears that the fiberglass ends and the port glass begins. Should I just set the scraper at the border between fiberglass and port glass? There also doesn't appear to be an inside frame other than the trim ring. I've removed the inside trim ring. Unfortunately it broke in 2 places due to being stuck to the gasket. Rich, Thanks for the tips about the hatches, but I haven't gotten to them yet. They're probably next. I was silly enough to believe that the close size match of the Lewmar Ocean series would be direct replacements. Silly me ... I know about the guy in Norwalk that can do Lewmar hatch work, but I thought he was limited to reglazing. I guess that before I start on the hatches I'd better talk to him and see what he can do. As far as I can tell at the moment, only the forward hatch is leaking and it's a very small leak. The fixed port lights, on the other hand, have several leaks and they aren't so small. So, I thought I'd start there. That is to say, I think the leak I'm observing is coming from the forward fixed port light on the starboard side. It's really hard to say if that's where it's getting in, but that's where the water drips into the cabin from. I do have the headliners out and I can't see it coming anyplace else, so I'm assuming it's coming in the port seals. The thing making it difficult to be sure is it doesn't appear inside the boat till a while (15 - 30 min) after the rain (or hose). Rich, One more question. You previously mentioned replacing the headliners with a composite from home depot. The only thing I can find is a very thin (< 1/8") composite that's very flimsy. It doesn't appear that it would handle the unsupported span (up to 18") of the headliners without sagging. Am I looking at what you're talking about? The only thicker/stiffer stuff I could find was a hardboard backed material more like paneling. -Smitty
R
Rich
Sorry I got your project confused
Smitty, I misunderstood, I thought you were working on hatches rather than ports. Let me answer your followups in reverse order: headliner material--the frp stuff with the stubbly texture that I got from Home Depot is rather flexible, but it's also very tough and should not sag once it's screwed in place. I think the flexibility will actually help keep it from pulling the screws loose the way the plywood backing did. The frp pieces I used to replace the little leather-covered cardboard pieces above galley and nav station are hard enough in place that I could punch them and not have them push in. leaks--I have trouble believing the fixed ports would leak--there must be 2 inches of adhesive between the edges and the interior. Myself and another owner have compared notes and found a lot of surprising little sources of leaks that are more likely: --dorade box; some our our boats had the dorade box "floor" (cabin ceiling piece with vent shaft) caulked in place rather than glassed, and leaks from that will run down the coach roof liner to the area where you see water. Try pouring some water in the dorade box and see if you get a leak. --ceiling; I have a place in my ceiling where a saw cut through the fiberglass to the balsa core when they trimmed the liner; the crack in the deck above it causes water to drain through the cut and drip down my headliner. A shot of epoxy will seal it. and that brings us to source 3, your starboard Beckson port. A leak at that port will dribble down between the liners to about the area you're talking about. It sounds like you have to replace the ports anyway, so why not complete that first and see if it does the job? (If you use Beckson again ditch the originals and use the "rain drain" model, which the factory should have used to begin with!) I got my Beckson ports off last week and found that the factory had stuffed epoxy in the liner around it to seal it from leaks, but that doesn't mean there can't be a crack. There was an article in a magazine recently about how to replace fixed ports--not a pretty job, one you might have a port specialist do if you have one available (it's not caulk holding it on, it's a tenacious adhesive that would probably require destroying the old port to get off). If your forward hatch is the only one leaking, then you're not bad off, because there's no cored deck in that area and nothing is getting damaged. I'm not sure what you meant about sizes above, but I'm pretty sure the current Lewmar size 20 and 40 Ocean series hatches are drop-in replacements (okay, but maybe with different screw hole positions to be drilled).
Smitty, I misunderstood, I thought you were working on hatches rather than ports. Let me answer your followups in reverse order: headliner material--the frp stuff with the stubbly texture that I got from Home Depot is rather flexible, but it's also very tough and should not sag once it's screwed in place. I think the flexibility will actually help keep it from pulling the screws loose the way the plywood backing did. The frp pieces I used to replace the little leather-covered cardboard pieces above galley and nav station are hard enough in place that I could punch them and not have them push in. leaks--I have trouble believing the fixed ports would leak--there must be 2 inches of adhesive between the edges and the interior. Myself and another owner have compared notes and found a lot of surprising little sources of leaks that are more likely: --dorade box; some our our boats had the dorade box "floor" (cabin ceiling piece with vent shaft) caulked in place rather than glassed, and leaks from that will run down the coach roof liner to the area where you see water. Try pouring some water in the dorade box and see if you get a leak. --ceiling; I have a place in my ceiling where a saw cut through the fiberglass to the balsa core when they trimmed the liner; the crack in the deck above it causes water to drain through the cut and drip down my headliner. A shot of epoxy will seal it. and that brings us to source 3, your starboard Beckson port. A leak at that port will dribble down between the liners to about the area you're talking about. It sounds like you have to replace the ports anyway, so why not complete that first and see if it does the job? (If you use Beckson again ditch the originals and use the "rain drain" model, which the factory should have used to begin with!) I got my Beckson ports off last week and found that the factory had stuffed epoxy in the liner around it to seal it from leaks, but that doesn't mean there can't be a crack. There was an article in a magazine recently about how to replace fixed ports--not a pretty job, one you might have a port specialist do if you have one available (it's not caulk holding it on, it's a tenacious adhesive that would probably require destroying the old port to get off). If your forward hatch is the only one leaking, then you're not bad off, because there's no cored deck in that area and nothing is getting damaged. I'm not sure what you meant about sizes above, but I'm pretty sure the current Lewmar size 20 and 40 Ocean series hatches are drop-in replacements (okay, but maybe with different screw hole positions to be drilled).
R
Rich
where we are in the hit parade...
I've got a 1987, hull #91 (CABD0091I687), which has the dorade box floor neatly glassed in, but they still did the thing with the headliner shim screws going into the floor of the box...sigh... While we're on hull numbers, I'm really curious to know how many of "us" were made (my guess is about 130). The Coast guard documentation numbers for our HIN series end with my boat, but we know Lear/Siegler/Starcraft/Pearson/whoever kept making them until late '89 when Pearson bought the name, tooling, and a couple of finished hulls (of 33-2's?) at a bankruptcy auction. Anyone who's got a hull number higher than 92, let's hear from you...
I've got a 1987, hull #91 (CABD0091I687), which has the dorade box floor neatly glassed in, but they still did the thing with the headliner shim screws going into the floor of the box...sigh... While we're on hull numbers, I'm really curious to know how many of "us" were made (my guess is about 130). The Coast guard documentation numbers for our HIN series end with my boat, but we know Lear/Siegler/Starcraft/Pearson/whoever kept making them until late '89 when Pearson bought the name, tooling, and a couple of finished hulls (of 33-2's?) at a bankruptcy auction. Anyone who's got a hull number higher than 92, let's hear from you...
R
Rich
Bing! We have a winner!
Thanks for answering, Larry, and she looks very fine. So far my guess of 130 was in the ballpark. Anybody with an '89 out there? Anybody with a later hull than Larry's? Let's hear from you high number guys...
Thanks for answering, Larry, and she looks very fine. So far my guess of 130 was in the ballpark. Anybody with an '89 out there? Anybody with a later hull than Larry's? Let's hear from you high number guys...
R
Rich
Take bets on the last number?
Thanks Gary, another '88 up in the 130's. Should I guess higher or stand pat? Did production come to a standstill for the '89 season and freeze the series? I've seen some '88's for sale on Yachtworld.com over the last couple of years, but never an '89. Are there any? I would be very surprised if the numbers were over 150, given that no '89's get advertised, but 145 may be within reach. Sorry to Smitty that this thread kind of hijacked your original topic; I was going to start it up as a new one but it took off, and it's really kind of fascinating...
Thanks Gary, another '88 up in the 130's. Should I guess higher or stand pat? Did production come to a standstill for the '89 season and freeze the series? I've seen some '88's for sale on Yachtworld.com over the last couple of years, but never an '89. Are there any? I would be very surprised if the numbers were over 150, given that no '89's get advertised, but 145 may be within reach. Sorry to Smitty that this thread kind of hijacked your original topic; I was going to start it up as a new one but it took off, and it's really kind of fascinating...
You're right,
it is kind of fascinating. No problem with diverting the thread. My dorades were like Rob's, and on the port side had the plywood shim screwed up into the middle of the box. They leaked at the edges, several of the screw holes that held the bottoms in and from the screws holding the shim on the port side. I wonder why they only needed the shim on the port side???? I kind of borrowed part of Rob's solution, but embellished it. I made a couple of plywood (1/2" marine) hockey sticks, tacked them in place to provide a sealable edge on the outboard and forward edges, then built epoxy (West System with microlite) up on top of them. We're not quite finished yet so I don't know if it'll work, but it looks like it will. -Smitty
it is kind of fascinating. No problem with diverting the thread. My dorades were like Rob's, and on the port side had the plywood shim screwed up into the middle of the box. They leaked at the edges, several of the screw holes that held the bottoms in and from the screws holding the shim on the port side. I wonder why they only needed the shim on the port side???? I kind of borrowed part of Rob's solution, but embellished it. I made a couple of plywood (1/2" marine) hockey sticks, tacked them in place to provide a sealable edge on the outboard and forward edges, then built epoxy (West System with microlite) up on top of them. We're not quite finished yet so I don't know if it'll work, but it looks like it will. -Smitty
R
Rick
Buy new
I found a guy out of Califonia that has all the original Cal window plans. Buy new, the only way to really fix the leak
I found a guy out of Califonia that has all the original Cal window plans. Buy new, the only way to really fix the leak
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