I wrote to the Forum in October about the leak a prospective buyer's surveyor found in the entire starbord deck under the non-skid area. Responses to the problem in the Forum were not helpful. I had the boat transported to a marine fiberglass repair facility that specializes in major repairs. When the deck was removed from the anchor well to the aft winch area, the entire underside was found to be saturated. In addition, to our surprise , the so called balsa core was actually small squares of plywood throughout the underside interspersed with a minimal amount of balsa core. The claim by Hunter that they have a balsa core boat is laughable! The next great surprise was the location of the source of the leak. It was coming from the exit fitting in the deck,just aft of the anchor well, for the furling line. It was installed deep into the deck without proper sealing and water entered and travelled the length of the deck. A friend told me he had seen a similar article about the same fitting leaking in another Hunter. My suggestion to readers is to check your boat with a moisture meter regularly. P.S. Cost of the repair $11,800, plus transporting an additional $1,280.
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drainage
for knowledge, what was done to get rid of the water that had got into the shell. in retrospect, could there have been an easier way of getting rid of this rather than splitting the deck/double skin. does this water damage the ply/balsa inside and does it have to be replaced, etc.
for knowledge, what was done to get rid of the water that had got into the shell. in retrospect, could there have been an easier way of getting rid of this rather than splitting the deck/double skin. does this water damage the ply/balsa inside and does it have to be replaced, etc.
Do I want Another Hunter?
In the past few weeks this forum has been filled with examples of mfg. disasters. Leaking decks, liners stuck in structural elements, refridgerators without insulation, fittings without seals, on and on. i have sailed my 2000 340( purchased new) for three years and have my eye on a 386 new in a year or two. In my experience i have replaced the head, the hot water heater, had a leak in aft cabin, had bottom of wine rack fall out ( held in by small brads facing up!) had clothing hanging bar fall out ( less than 1/4 inch screw now thru bolted (which i blamed on the Delaware Bay)) I have done and paid for these things and other "little" things in good humor although in my lifetime i never had this much go wrong with a product . I assumed throughout these experiences that the environment of a boat will cause problems and a certain level of acceptance is necessary, but I must say these last weeks of reading have been disheartening to say the least. Is this what I have to "look forward" to? So i put it to you... Do I want another Hunter?
In the past few weeks this forum has been filled with examples of mfg. disasters. Leaking decks, liners stuck in structural elements, refridgerators without insulation, fittings without seals, on and on. i have sailed my 2000 340( purchased new) for three years and have my eye on a 386 new in a year or two. In my experience i have replaced the head, the hot water heater, had a leak in aft cabin, had bottom of wine rack fall out ( held in by small brads facing up!) had clothing hanging bar fall out ( less than 1/4 inch screw now thru bolted (which i blamed on the Delaware Bay)) I have done and paid for these things and other "little" things in good humor although in my lifetime i never had this much go wrong with a product . I assumed throughout these experiences that the environment of a boat will cause problems and a certain level of acceptance is necessary, but I must say these last weeks of reading have been disheartening to say the least. Is this what I have to "look forward" to? So i put it to you... Do I want another Hunter?
Art, Where did you ship to have fixed?
Did they do a good job? I'm in NJ and can't find anybody to do fiberglass work.
Did they do a good job? I'm in NJ and can't find anybody to do fiberglass work.
tony, my opinion
we have a 1987 34ft hunter. paid 36k for it and have another 9 in refit for a total of 45k. dont have my lifes savings tied up, have a boat that looks new and is comfortable for the two of us. i can sail her for another 10 yrs and feel it doesnt owe me a dime.it's kind of funny. our boat sits betweeen a 150k 42sun odessy and a 100k 35 tartan and directly accross the dock is a 400k hallberg rassy. everytime i look around i just smile. granted they dont spend time rebedding ports, tightening toe rail bolts and that kind of stuff i still think our boat is cleaner than any of them. not bad for a hunter, eh? on the other hand spending in excess of 100k to over 200k presents more issues. its a big investment and i would want to see some real quality for that kind of money. based on what i have read here, i would lookd around and see what other manufacturers have to offer and even look at some used boats. personally, i think its not very comforting to see these many problems in todays world when technologies and mfg operations should be miles ahead of 10-15yrs ago. i dont think hunter should be using their customers as their quality control dept. i guess i am saying i have a problem with this and you the new buyer should let hunter know. everyone has to make their own decision with this but for me, i work to hard for my money to be willing to accept this kind of workmanship and would look elsewhere. sorry.craig
we have a 1987 34ft hunter. paid 36k for it and have another 9 in refit for a total of 45k. dont have my lifes savings tied up, have a boat that looks new and is comfortable for the two of us. i can sail her for another 10 yrs and feel it doesnt owe me a dime.it's kind of funny. our boat sits betweeen a 150k 42sun odessy and a 100k 35 tartan and directly accross the dock is a 400k hallberg rassy. everytime i look around i just smile. granted they dont spend time rebedding ports, tightening toe rail bolts and that kind of stuff i still think our boat is cleaner than any of them. not bad for a hunter, eh? on the other hand spending in excess of 100k to over 200k presents more issues. its a big investment and i would want to see some real quality for that kind of money. based on what i have read here, i would lookd around and see what other manufacturers have to offer and even look at some used boats. personally, i think its not very comforting to see these many problems in todays world when technologies and mfg operations should be miles ahead of 10-15yrs ago. i dont think hunter should be using their customers as their quality control dept. i guess i am saying i have a problem with this and you the new buyer should let hunter know. everyone has to make their own decision with this but for me, i work to hard for my money to be willing to accept this kind of workmanship and would look elsewhere. sorry.craig
Tony, you better buy a used boat.
Tony: If you don't want these little problems, you had better purchase a used boat. Your head and hot water heater where NOT mfg by Hunter. These are the same products that where installed in a Hans Christian and a Tartan (so what can I tell you). All boats leak when new (and old too). So the way I see it you had a closet bar and a Wine Rack problem. This is NOT to dimish the responsibility of the Hunter Group and their dealers. They are responsible and they take care of the problems. If you look back on each and every one of the problems that we have seen, the problems were addressed. Everyone would agree (especially Hunter) that procedures need to put in place to help eliminate these problems, but I do not think you will ever find any mfg putting out 2-5 boats a day without problems.
Tony: If you don't want these little problems, you had better purchase a used boat. Your head and hot water heater where NOT mfg by Hunter. These are the same products that where installed in a Hans Christian and a Tartan (so what can I tell you). All boats leak when new (and old too). So the way I see it you had a closet bar and a Wine Rack problem. This is NOT to dimish the responsibility of the Hunter Group and their dealers. They are responsible and they take care of the problems. If you look back on each and every one of the problems that we have seen, the problems were addressed. Everyone would agree (especially Hunter) that procedures need to put in place to help eliminate these problems, but I do not think you will ever find any mfg putting out 2-5 boats a day without problems.
Photos? Buyer? Seller?
Did you take any photos of the plywood core? And I'm curious: the boat was being surveyed, are you the seller?
Did you take any photos of the plywood core? And I'm curious: the boat was being surveyed, are you the seller?
Would it make any difference?
Art: I am quite suprised that you never could tell that there was water infiltration into the deck. It seems to me that most of the time you can tell that this area has gotten spongy or flexing. I had a question regarding the balsa coring. I do not remember any references to balsa coring in the hunters. What you described is what most owners have reported (multiple pieces of plywood). Did you get quotes from different yards? A friend of mine had this done on his 35.5 and it was much less than what you paid. Did you get any pictures. The price you paid was approx 1 man month of labor (assuming $65/hr labor rate). I cannot imagine that there was much in the way of materials in this job. The exit fitting you referred to, is this the block for the furling line? Assuming that this is the case, I guess that everyone with older boats should be aware of re-caulking their deck fittings every 5-10 years to prevent things like this happening. This also reinforces my idea of using butyl vs. caulking. It is something that I am going to do this spring on all and any deck mounted fittings, winches, blocks etc.
Art: I am quite suprised that you never could tell that there was water infiltration into the deck. It seems to me that most of the time you can tell that this area has gotten spongy or flexing. I had a question regarding the balsa coring. I do not remember any references to balsa coring in the hunters. What you described is what most owners have reported (multiple pieces of plywood). Did you get quotes from different yards? A friend of mine had this done on his 35.5 and it was much less than what you paid. Did you get any pictures. The price you paid was approx 1 man month of labor (assuming $65/hr labor rate). I cannot imagine that there was much in the way of materials in this job. The exit fitting you referred to, is this the block for the furling line? Assuming that this is the case, I guess that everyone with older boats should be aware of re-caulking their deck fittings every 5-10 years to prevent things like this happening. This also reinforces my idea of using butyl vs. caulking. It is something that I am going to do this spring on all and any deck mounted fittings, winches, blocks etc.
Seal Furler Line Thru-deck Holes
The "exit fitting in the deck,just aft of the anchor well" is one or two hole, depending on whether the furler had continuous line or single line setup, and each hole was about 1-inch in diameter and drilled on an angle of about 45 degrees. After removing the metal trim pieces one can easily see the deck fill material where the holes were drilled. I coated the holes (I have two holes) on my boat with epoxy and replaced the trim fittings that are held down with very small screws. Furlers with a continuous line would have more difficulty in the application of the epoxy. After mixing the epoxy the time to coat the holes was about two minutes. My epoxy application was less than perfect and it cured with a few rough spots and a couple "barbs" so I smoothed the surface with a coarse rat-tail file. Time for filing about 2 minutes (about 1 minute per hole). The ancillary work such as removing the furling line, removing the trim pieces, rounding up the sealant and the caulking gun, paper plate to mix the epoxy on, (had the epoxy on board), and cleanup, say 40 minutes. If the epoxy sealing was done at the factory (as I think it should have) the time required should be considerably less. Guesses anyone? Say, 5 minutes assuming epoxy is available on the production line? Probably the main leak sources are the genoa track screw holes and any coach roof port leaks. The genoa track is recessed so any water would be able to sit there and provide ample opportunity for seepage. Anyone with a hint of mildew smell should remove all the genoa track bolts and reinstall with sealant. A better solution would be to drill the holes out somewhat larger and seal with epoxy (when everything is dry) then reinstall the genoa track bolts with sealant. Leaky port lights probably can allow water to flow downhill on the underside of the coach roof and into the deck void. Having never seen how the inner liner is attached to the coach roof/deck I can't say for sure but unless there is something to prevent this flow path it's a given since water flows downhill.
The "exit fitting in the deck,just aft of the anchor well" is one or two hole, depending on whether the furler had continuous line or single line setup, and each hole was about 1-inch in diameter and drilled on an angle of about 45 degrees. After removing the metal trim pieces one can easily see the deck fill material where the holes were drilled. I coated the holes (I have two holes) on my boat with epoxy and replaced the trim fittings that are held down with very small screws. Furlers with a continuous line would have more difficulty in the application of the epoxy. After mixing the epoxy the time to coat the holes was about two minutes. My epoxy application was less than perfect and it cured with a few rough spots and a couple "barbs" so I smoothed the surface with a coarse rat-tail file. Time for filing about 2 minutes (about 1 minute per hole). The ancillary work such as removing the furling line, removing the trim pieces, rounding up the sealant and the caulking gun, paper plate to mix the epoxy on, (had the epoxy on board), and cleanup, say 40 minutes. If the epoxy sealing was done at the factory (as I think it should have) the time required should be considerably less. Guesses anyone? Say, 5 minutes assuming epoxy is available on the production line? Probably the main leak sources are the genoa track screw holes and any coach roof port leaks. The genoa track is recessed so any water would be able to sit there and provide ample opportunity for seepage. Anyone with a hint of mildew smell should remove all the genoa track bolts and reinstall with sealant. A better solution would be to drill the holes out somewhat larger and seal with epoxy (when everything is dry) then reinstall the genoa track bolts with sealant. Leaky port lights probably can allow water to flow downhill on the underside of the coach roof and into the deck void. Having never seen how the inner liner is attached to the coach roof/deck I can't say for sure but unless there is something to prevent this flow path it's a given since water flows downhill.
Sealing leaking roller furling fitting
Your in depth solution to sealing the leaking fitting does not work for me. After the saturated deck was removed by the fiberglass repair shop it took quite some time to detect the source of the leak. Hindsight is a wonderful thing!! If Hunter had properly installed the fitting, the leak would not have occured. Poor workmanship cost me a lot of money.
Your in depth solution to sealing the leaking fitting does not work for me. After the saturated deck was removed by the fiberglass repair shop it took quite some time to detect the source of the leak. Hindsight is a wonderful thing!! If Hunter had properly installed the fitting, the leak would not have occured. Poor workmanship cost me a lot of money.
Fiberglass repair shop
I had it repaired at Marine Fiberglass in Lindenhurst, N.Y. Jim Ray is the owner and they did a good job.
I had it repaired at Marine Fiberglass in Lindenhurst, N.Y. Jim Ray is the owner and they did a good job.
Drainage
The saturated underside of the deck prevented me from selling the boat because all surveyors would have their potential buyers pass on it. No one could come up with a solution to the repair with the exception of total removal and replacement. Attempts at other methods would have been time consuming an unproductive and the source of the leak couldn't be found. Most boat repair shops pointed fingers at the other deck fittings such as chain plate mounts to be the source of the leak. As I said in another reply, hindsight is a wonderful thing!
The saturated underside of the deck prevented me from selling the boat because all surveyors would have their potential buyers pass on it. No one could come up with a solution to the repair with the exception of total removal and replacement. Attempts at other methods would have been time consuming an unproductive and the source of the leak couldn't be found. Most boat repair shops pointed fingers at the other deck fittings such as chain plate mounts to be the source of the leak. As I said in another reply, hindsight is a wonderful thing!
Some People Just Don't Get It!
Art, I feel your pain! And I really sympathize with you. To have to go through all those problems and at such a huge expense - all for the lack of a lack of a little extra work to do the job right in the first place - really hurts. My post about "Seal Furler Line...." was (1) to answer Steve Dion's question about where the whatch-a-ma-callits were (don't remember his exact words) and (2) to hopefully enlighten others with the same setup about how to seal the holes (assuming everything is dry). So you know, it wasn't directed to you and if you thought it was I appologize. Visit the post "A Litle Worried about my 426!!!!!" where everybody is tooting how great the new Hunters are and they don't understand why some people pick on Hunter. It's problems like this where just a FEW bucks spent initially in manufacture would have save thousands later. I would hope the newer boats are better. Wonder if their genoa track holes are epoxy sealed or designed to prevent water intrusion? There were a lot of boats built and sold over many years with the same method of construction as ours so it's good that you brought this to everybody's attention. Hopefully more owners will take an interest in some of these "little details" that could become really expensive if not properly taken care of. The 37.5 is a really nice boat and my wife and I really like it. What do they say about 2-foot-itis?
Art, I feel your pain! And I really sympathize with you. To have to go through all those problems and at such a huge expense - all for the lack of a lack of a little extra work to do the job right in the first place - really hurts. My post about "Seal Furler Line...." was (1) to answer Steve Dion's question about where the whatch-a-ma-callits were (don't remember his exact words) and (2) to hopefully enlighten others with the same setup about how to seal the holes (assuming everything is dry). So you know, it wasn't directed to you and if you thought it was I appologize. Visit the post "A Litle Worried about my 426!!!!!" where everybody is tooting how great the new Hunters are and they don't understand why some people pick on Hunter. It's problems like this where just a FEW bucks spent initially in manufacture would have save thousands later. I would hope the newer boats are better. Wonder if their genoa track holes are epoxy sealed or designed to prevent water intrusion? There were a lot of boats built and sold over many years with the same method of construction as ours so it's good that you brought this to everybody's attention. Hopefully more owners will take an interest in some of these "little details" that could become really expensive if not properly taken care of. The 37.5 is a really nice boat and my wife and I really like it. What do they say about 2-foot-itis?
Who's to blame
Dear Art: I purchased a new 37.5 in 1991 and it was delivered and commissioned by my dealer in San Diego. I made frequent visits to the boat yard to monitor the commissioning process. My 37.5 was completely rigged, including the roller furling unit and installation of all deck and stanchions fitting, during commissioning and not at the factory. This allows the buyer the option of installing equipment of choice during commissioning. Your final product is truly dependent on the care and attention of the workers who commission the boat after delivery from the factory. This is,of course, true of any boat regardless of brand. Your problem may be a commissioning mistake rather than a factory error.In the past, I have commissioned 3 new boats, my present boat is a H460 and hopefully my last boat. As for as the balsa core used in the deck, it's my understanding that Hunter uses Baltek end grain balsa core which most major boat builders use in coring hulls and decks.
Dear Art: I purchased a new 37.5 in 1991 and it was delivered and commissioned by my dealer in San Diego. I made frequent visits to the boat yard to monitor the commissioning process. My 37.5 was completely rigged, including the roller furling unit and installation of all deck and stanchions fitting, during commissioning and not at the factory. This allows the buyer the option of installing equipment of choice during commissioning. Your final product is truly dependent on the care and attention of the workers who commission the boat after delivery from the factory. This is,of course, true of any boat regardless of brand. Your problem may be a commissioning mistake rather than a factory error.In the past, I have commissioned 3 new boats, my present boat is a H460 and hopefully my last boat. As for as the balsa core used in the deck, it's my understanding that Hunter uses Baltek end grain balsa core which most major boat builders use in coring hulls and decks.
Exit Deck Fitting
There are two issues: (1) leakage due to unsealed deck holes for bolts to anchor the genoa track, and, (2) unsealed deck holes for the furler lines. For those of you who are unfamiliar with the below-deck furler installations the exit deck fitting that's been discussed is in the attached (hopefully) picture [forgot to attach!! see next post]. A hole, about 1-inch diameter, is drilled through the deck at an angle. The first below-deck furlers were probably in '87 and lasted until at least sometime in the early (and maybe mid) '90s. Note that with the fairleads removed the deck core material can be easily seen in the picture. I don't know who drilled the holes and installed the fairleads but I'd lay odds that it was the factory. I don't know anybody who had the option of an above-deck furler and I don't think this could have been an option as the sail would have had to be recut or a different sail provided. Who's responsible? I'm no lawyer so I can't provide a legal answer, but I do know who has to pay. Maybe we should have known? Everything was covered up so who would guess that there was a problem. Is being a "production" boat a good excuse? ....or a boat that is a good-bang-for-the-buck? Even if you don't have this problem on your boat do you think it will impact your resale value? Commissioning mistake rather than a factory error? - curious what Crazy Dave would say. I checked the brochure for my boat and couldn't find anything about the filler material used in the deck. In fact, the cross-section appears to be solid fiberglass. It does mention "balsa core" for the hull sides between the deck and the start of the bilge pan which is about where the water line is. This un-edited quote from the Hunter sales brochure next to the hull cross-section diagram makes for feel-good reading: Legendary Craftsmanship and Quality The Legend [enter length] contains stunning examples of Hunter's achievements in quality and craftsmanship. You have integral aluminum plates for attaching deck hardware and a Hunter designed extruded aluminum toe rail with an outboard deck-to-hull flange which seals the Legend. You get molded-in non-skid on the deck, stainless steel handrails and easy access to the steering quadrant for simplified maintenance. Inboard recessed genoa tracks and the sea hood keep your lines and halyards from being a trip hazard. Hunter's quality and engineering means you'll get a long and enjoyable life from your Legend [enter boat length]. The boat's durability and contemporary design means your resale value is among the industry's best.
There are two issues: (1) leakage due to unsealed deck holes for bolts to anchor the genoa track, and, (2) unsealed deck holes for the furler lines. For those of you who are unfamiliar with the below-deck furler installations the exit deck fitting that's been discussed is in the attached (hopefully) picture [forgot to attach!! see next post]. A hole, about 1-inch diameter, is drilled through the deck at an angle. The first below-deck furlers were probably in '87 and lasted until at least sometime in the early (and maybe mid) '90s. Note that with the fairleads removed the deck core material can be easily seen in the picture. I don't know who drilled the holes and installed the fairleads but I'd lay odds that it was the factory. I don't know anybody who had the option of an above-deck furler and I don't think this could have been an option as the sail would have had to be recut or a different sail provided. Who's responsible? I'm no lawyer so I can't provide a legal answer, but I do know who has to pay. Maybe we should have known? Everything was covered up so who would guess that there was a problem. Is being a "production" boat a good excuse? ....or a boat that is a good-bang-for-the-buck? Even if you don't have this problem on your boat do you think it will impact your resale value? Commissioning mistake rather than a factory error? - curious what Crazy Dave would say. I checked the brochure for my boat and couldn't find anything about the filler material used in the deck. In fact, the cross-section appears to be solid fiberglass. It does mention "balsa core" for the hull sides between the deck and the start of the bilge pan which is about where the water line is. This un-edited quote from the Hunter sales brochure next to the hull cross-section diagram makes for feel-good reading: Legendary Craftsmanship and Quality The Legend [enter length] contains stunning examples of Hunter's achievements in quality and craftsmanship. You have integral aluminum plates for attaching deck hardware and a Hunter designed extruded aluminum toe rail with an outboard deck-to-hull flange which seals the Legend. You get molded-in non-skid on the deck, stainless steel handrails and easy access to the steering quadrant for simplified maintenance. Inboard recessed genoa tracks and the sea hood keep your lines and halyards from being a trip hazard. Hunter's quality and engineering means you'll get a long and enjoyable life from your Legend [enter boat length]. The boat's durability and contemporary design means your resale value is among the industry's best.
Deck repairs
I have a hunter 43 that experienced exactly the same problem. Water infiltration via the roller furiling control lines. I found the problem while I was conducting my own survey. I still purchased the boat and had it repaired by Saleen Fiberglass repairs in Mystic Connecticut. We went from the anchor well to the end of the geneoa track however only about 6 feet needed actual repair. We used new composite deck coreing and thouroughly sealed all deck fittings and penetrations. The owner of the repair shop and his team did an outstanding job and the deck is rock solid and the gelcoat finish is excellent. Cost wast about $7,000.00 and well worth it. I have always has my hulls and decks measured for moisture every 2-3 years. It's great preventative maintenance
I have a hunter 43 that experienced exactly the same problem. Water infiltration via the roller furiling control lines. I found the problem while I was conducting my own survey. I still purchased the boat and had it repaired by Saleen Fiberglass repairs in Mystic Connecticut. We went from the anchor well to the end of the geneoa track however only about 6 feet needed actual repair. We used new composite deck coreing and thouroughly sealed all deck fittings and penetrations. The owner of the repair shop and his team did an outstanding job and the deck is rock solid and the gelcoat finish is excellent. Cost wast about $7,000.00 and well worth it. I have always has my hulls and decks measured for moisture every 2-3 years. It's great preventative maintenance
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