I have a 356 with in mast main. I am struggling to figure out how to eliminate leach lufting of the main. Would appreciate any wisdom. Thanks
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Re: Leach flutter
I have a traditional rig with all the sail control lines which allows me to control among other things, leach flutter. I have to say at this point that the way some of the boats are designed today can hardly be called "new and improved". Taking away sail control lines for the sake of easing hoisting a sail is IMHO inexcusable. However, if you have a leach line, then this is your first step to remove the flutter. John, I don't think that you are doing anything wrong. I seem to remember reading posts in the past from other Hunter owners with the same problem. Maybe a search of the archives would help.
I have a traditional rig with all the sail control lines which allows me to control among other things, leach flutter. I have to say at this point that the way some of the boats are designed today can hardly be called "new and improved". Taking away sail control lines for the sake of easing hoisting a sail is IMHO inexcusable. However, if you have a leach line, then this is your first step to remove the flutter. John, I don't think that you are doing anything wrong. I seem to remember reading posts in the past from other Hunter owners with the same problem. Maybe a search of the archives would help.
Many posts in the archives
There are many posts on the topic, and as many solutions. The loose footed main needs special attention, and the biggest mistake most are making...myself included, is flying with the outhaul too tight. Loosen her up untill you think she's way too full, then go another couple inches on the mainsheet. She should fill nicely, pick up speed and eliminate the flutter prob. Personally, I'm not at all comfortable climbing the arch to adjust the leach line, and it didn't help anyway
Another issue that my dealer had wrong was the wrong tension on the main halyard. Play with this a little under sail, but remember it needs to be pretty tight to furl the sail back in without jams. I've also heard good things about Doyle's swingbatten main. Good luck
There are many posts on the topic, and as many solutions. The loose footed main needs special attention, and the biggest mistake most are making...myself included, is flying with the outhaul too tight. Loosen her up untill you think she's way too full, then go another couple inches on the mainsheet. She should fill nicely, pick up speed and eliminate the flutter prob. Personally, I'm not at all comfortable climbing the arch to adjust the leach line, and it didn't help anyway
Another issue that my dealer had wrong was the wrong tension on the main halyard. Play with this a little under sail, but remember it needs to be pretty tight to furl the sail back in without jams. I've also heard good things about Doyle's swingbatten main. Good luck
356 leach flutter
millham39 basically hit all the important points to try-generally the leach line alone won't stop the flutter, you need to adjust the outhaul and the halyard tension-a tight halyard,even by an inch or two, can cause an unbelievable flutter-try easing it just a bit, then play with the outhaul. going upwind in moderate air the center of the foot should be maybe 6" off the boom as a starting point.
millham39 basically hit all the important points to try-generally the leach line alone won't stop the flutter, you need to adjust the outhaul and the halyard tension-a tight halyard,even by an inch or two, can cause an unbelievable flutter-try easing it just a bit, then play with the outhaul. going upwind in moderate air the center of the foot should be maybe 6" off the boom as a starting point.
Check you boom vang
On my 36 with mast furling, we have had the same problem. After a lot of trying things we found that the boom van, we have the hard vang, was installed with the attachment point at the boom to close to the mast. After moving it back I use the vang and traveler to control most of my flutter.
On my 36 with mast furling, we have had the same problem. After a lot of trying things we found that the boom van, we have the hard vang, was installed with the attachment point at the boom to close to the mast. After moving it back I use the vang and traveler to control most of my flutter.
356 leach Flutter
All the gentlemen posting before me have offered up good information. Where I tried all those suggestions I still did not over come the problem especially when the winds were 16 - 18 knots or above. On one sail last summer the winds were close to if not over 30 at time and luffing flutter was so bad no matter what we tried I thought the sail was going to just rip apart. Did some research and decided to buy a new main. Started looking at Doyle Swing batten but was told by the their loft in City island, NY that they had replaced it with their new Zenith main. I just received it but of course there are some issues, primarily that the bottom of the verticle battens get stuck when trying to unfurl or furl the main. I just sent off an email to Doyle and await their reply. Unfortunately I have not sailed with the new sail yet so we need to see what the performance difference is. The sail is about 30% larger then the UK sail supplied and has more of a roach. Looking at the sail I believe I have found the answer to my problem if we can solve the furling issue. I have a photo but need to change format and size. I will try to make the changes and post in the near future. Bob Keller S/V Kathryn, Stamford, Ct
All the gentlemen posting before me have offered up good information. Where I tried all those suggestions I still did not over come the problem especially when the winds were 16 - 18 knots or above. On one sail last summer the winds were close to if not over 30 at time and luffing flutter was so bad no matter what we tried I thought the sail was going to just rip apart. Did some research and decided to buy a new main. Started looking at Doyle Swing batten but was told by the their loft in City island, NY that they had replaced it with their new Zenith main. I just received it but of course there are some issues, primarily that the bottom of the verticle battens get stuck when trying to unfurl or furl the main. I just sent off an email to Doyle and await their reply. Unfortunately I have not sailed with the new sail yet so we need to see what the performance difference is. The sail is about 30% larger then the UK sail supplied and has more of a roach. Looking at the sail I believe I have found the answer to my problem if we can solve the furling issue. I have a photo but need to change format and size. I will try to make the changes and post in the near future. Bob Keller S/V Kathryn, Stamford, Ct
Question on flutter
Why is the 356 having so many probles with flutter. Other Hunters have the in-mast furling and don't hear about problems with them? For me I grab the leach line and pull down hard which solves the problem until it slips out. Tried everything mentioned above without satisfaction. Jim S/V Java
Why is the 356 having so many probles with flutter. Other Hunters have the in-mast furling and don't hear about problems with them? For me I grab the leach line and pull down hard which solves the problem until it slips out. Tried everything mentioned above without satisfaction. Jim S/V Java
Doyle Zenith Main
Ok, the college education was worth it. Just had my son change the format of the picture of the new main. Hard to see, but if you look carefully you can see the bottom and top of the boom lift. The old UK sail was cut to fit inside the boom lift line and note the three verticle battens. Remember I still have the issue with the battens hanging up upon unfurling or furling. I have not heard back from Doyle yet. Also, this larger sail fills the cavity of the mast, not much room for error. I'll keep you posted on Doyle's response to the problem with furling. Bob Keller
Ok, the college education was worth it. Just had my son change the format of the picture of the new main. Hard to see, but if you look carefully you can see the bottom and top of the boom lift. The old UK sail was cut to fit inside the boom lift line and note the three verticle battens. Remember I still have the issue with the battens hanging up upon unfurling or furling. I have not heard back from Doyle yet. Also, this larger sail fills the cavity of the mast, not much room for error. I'll keep you posted on Doyle's response to the problem with furling. Bob Keller
Attachments
jim's question
It's not the boat, it's the sails designed for it. A batten-less sail, including a jib, will flutter if the leach is designed with inadequate scallop. If there's not enough scallop, a leach line is powerless to prevent flutter. The good news is that any good sailmaker can correct this problem relatively easily, by re-cutting the leach. The bad news is that the recut will involve sacrificing a small amount of sail area.
It's not the boat, it's the sails designed for it. A batten-less sail, including a jib, will flutter if the leach is designed with inadequate scallop. If there's not enough scallop, a leach line is powerless to prevent flutter. The good news is that any good sailmaker can correct this problem relatively easily, by re-cutting the leach. The bad news is that the recut will involve sacrificing a small amount of sail area.
The leach line did it
We had heavy leach flutter - and complained loudly about it - and then one of our service techs here in Orange Park tightened the leach cord appropriately. (I instantly marked it with a magic marker to learn where to tighten it in case it came loose again.) But, we did have flutter later on the occasion when when the main was getting too much air flow off the jib in heavier air(about 15-20 knots.) Loosening the jib a bit and raising the main with the traveler stopped the flutter. I know how you feel when it is fluttering, so try cranking down the leach cord in increments. Good luck!
We had heavy leach flutter - and complained loudly about it - and then one of our service techs here in Orange Park tightened the leach cord appropriately. (I instantly marked it with a magic marker to learn where to tighten it in case it came loose again.) But, we did have flutter later on the occasion when when the main was getting too much air flow off the jib in heavier air(about 15-20 knots.) Loosening the jib a bit and raising the main with the traveler stopped the flutter. I know how you feel when it is fluttering, so try cranking down the leach cord in increments. Good luck!
The leach cord did it for us
We had heavy leach flutter - and complained loudly about it - and then one of our service techs here in Orange Park tightened the leach cord appropriately. (I instantly marked it with a magic marker to learn where to tighten it in case it came loose again.) But, we did have flutter later on the occasion when when the main was getting too much air flow off the jib in heavier air(about 15-20 knots.) Loosening the jib a bit and raising the main with the traveler stopped the flutter. I know how you feel when it is fluttering, so try cranking down the leach cord in increments. Good luck!
We had heavy leach flutter - and complained loudly about it - and then one of our service techs here in Orange Park tightened the leach cord appropriately. (I instantly marked it with a magic marker to learn where to tighten it in case it came loose again.) But, we did have flutter later on the occasion when when the main was getting too much air flow off the jib in heavier air(about 15-20 knots.) Loosening the jib a bit and raising the main with the traveler stopped the flutter. I know how you feel when it is fluttering, so try cranking down the leach cord in increments. Good luck!
doyle main
Bob, interesting comments on Doyle-because my doyle loft (marblehead) prefers the swingbatten to the zenith-because they say the swingbatten performs better-and the one they built for me works great! I would call Doyle directly, not rely on email-and insist on prompt attention to your problem-Doyle service is usually excellent and a jamming new sail is inexcusable. My swingbatten needed some rework-the 356 mast is a pretty small section-but Doyle marblehead came over immediately when I called, removed and reworked the sail, and reinstalled it and tested it until it worked to my satisfaction. BTW, based on your picture, I've got a much larger roach on the swingbatten than you have with the zenith-my roach is well outside the topping lift
Bob, interesting comments on Doyle-because my doyle loft (marblehead) prefers the swingbatten to the zenith-because they say the swingbatten performs better-and the one they built for me works great! I would call Doyle directly, not rely on email-and insist on prompt attention to your problem-Doyle service is usually excellent and a jamming new sail is inexcusable. My swingbatten needed some rework-the 356 mast is a pretty small section-but Doyle marblehead came over immediately when I called, removed and reworked the sail, and reinstalled it and tested it until it worked to my satisfaction. BTW, based on your picture, I've got a much larger roach on the swingbatten than you have with the zenith-my roach is well outside the topping lift
Doyle Main
Hello Chuck, I will question my Doyle rep regarding the swing batten again, just out of curiosity at this point. My rep did call me yesterday afternoon. Doyle is very willing to move forward with coming up with a solution to my problem as they want to sell these sails to Hunter going forward. I actually took a series of pictures which been forwarded to the designers at Doyle. We'll see what happens. I am anxious to sail with this new sail as it just "feels" as though it will far out perform the UK (and hopefully solve the flutter issue). Hopefully this weekend will be good. The plan is to sail on Saturday spending the night in Oyster Bay. If anyone happens to see us take a picture please and of course stop by and say hello. We will probably be on the hook by late Saturday afternoon just east of the Oyster Bay mooring field. We'll sail back to Stamford probably on Sunday afternoon. Regarding the difference between the swing batten and the zenith, I also thought the sail would have more roach as well, but as this sail fills the cavity of the mast I don't know if anymore sail would fit, obviously it does in your mast. Regards to all. See you on the sound and the Vineyard and Tucket in July. Bob
Hello Chuck, I will question my Doyle rep regarding the swing batten again, just out of curiosity at this point. My rep did call me yesterday afternoon. Doyle is very willing to move forward with coming up with a solution to my problem as they want to sell these sails to Hunter going forward. I actually took a series of pictures which been forwarded to the designers at Doyle. We'll see what happens. I am anxious to sail with this new sail as it just "feels" as though it will far out perform the UK (and hopefully solve the flutter issue). Hopefully this weekend will be good. The plan is to sail on Saturday spending the night in Oyster Bay. If anyone happens to see us take a picture please and of course stop by and say hello. We will probably be on the hook by late Saturday afternoon just east of the Oyster Bay mooring field. We'll sail back to Stamford probably on Sunday afternoon. Regarding the difference between the swing batten and the zenith, I also thought the sail would have more roach as well, but as this sail fills the cavity of the mast I don't know if anymore sail would fit, obviously it does in your mast. Regards to all. See you on the sound and the Vineyard and Tucket in July. Bob
vertical battens?
Have a 410 with furling main, and would like a better one than came with the boat (2000). When I suggested a vertical batten main to my local loft (Quantum) they very reasonably asked, what do you do if the thing won't furl properly? Can't take it down too well with those battens in, and I expect it would be very difficult to remove the battens if they are under any wind pressure. I'm apprehensive about this approach after thinking about it. The furling main generally works well, but sometimes needs a little persuasion. If it got stuck with vertical battens???? Any thoughts? BTW- with luck we will also be on a hook in Oyster Bay Saturday night, Northport Sunday, or vice versa. S/V Breathless h410 #250 US 51855
Have a 410 with furling main, and would like a better one than came with the boat (2000). When I suggested a vertical batten main to my local loft (Quantum) they very reasonably asked, what do you do if the thing won't furl properly? Can't take it down too well with those battens in, and I expect it would be very difficult to remove the battens if they are under any wind pressure. I'm apprehensive about this approach after thinking about it. The furling main generally works well, but sometimes needs a little persuasion. If it got stuck with vertical battens???? Any thoughts? BTW- with luck we will also be on a hook in Oyster Bay Saturday night, Northport Sunday, or vice versa. S/V Breathless h410 #250 US 51855
steve
I have vertical battens on my 410, on a laminated UK sail built by their Swedish loft. The sail shape I get is a zillion percent improvement over the OEM sail. If my furling mechanism were to break for some inexplicable reason, I would heave to and could remove my battens within a minute or two, they slide right out at the foot. The nice thing about the vertical battens is that they allow you to maintain luff tension after shortening sail, something that can't be done with a swing batten. One of the things I really hated about the OEM sail was that I would get horrible sail shape after "reefing," because there was no way to control luff tension. Now, If I shorten sail at the batten points, my shape is as good as ever. Indeed, the sail tends to flatten itself as I shorten it, since it's moving toward the back of the sail rather than just down, which is an advantage over how a conventional full-battened main reefs.
I have vertical battens on my 410, on a laminated UK sail built by their Swedish loft. The sail shape I get is a zillion percent improvement over the OEM sail. If my furling mechanism were to break for some inexplicable reason, I would heave to and could remove my battens within a minute or two, they slide right out at the foot. The nice thing about the vertical battens is that they allow you to maintain luff tension after shortening sail, something that can't be done with a swing batten. One of the things I really hated about the OEM sail was that I would get horrible sail shape after "reefing," because there was no way to control luff tension. Now, If I shorten sail at the batten points, my shape is as good as ever. Indeed, the sail tends to flatten itself as I shorten it, since it's moving toward the back of the sail rather than just down, which is an advantage over how a conventional full-battened main reefs.
sounds reassuring
John- that sounds pretty good- I think Quantum was trying to talk me out of vertical battens because they don't make them. The OEMs gotta go, but I feel kinda guilty because they're not that old, and I have to waste all this money on wife and kids, sometimes I don't properly support the boat. Will have to look into UK loft. Thanks for advice- S/V Breathless h410 #250 US 51855
John- that sounds pretty good- I think Quantum was trying to talk me out of vertical battens because they don't make them. The OEMs gotta go, but I feel kinda guilty because they're not that old, and I have to waste all this money on wife and kids, sometimes I don't properly support the boat. Will have to look into UK loft. Thanks for advice- S/V Breathless h410 #250 US 51855
luff tension??
John, I'm not sure what you mean about not maintaining luff tension with the swingbatten-we've never had a problem controlling sail shape when reefed. As to the stuck reefing fear, I posed the same question to my doyle rep-and when the first version (since corrected)of my sail did get stuck, he showed me how to get it down in an emergency by releasing the halyard and just hauling it down and out.
John, I'm not sure what you mean about not maintaining luff tension with the swingbatten-we've never had a problem controlling sail shape when reefed. As to the stuck reefing fear, I posed the same question to my doyle rep-and when the first version (since corrected)of my sail did get stuck, he showed me how to get it down in an emergency by releasing the halyard and just hauling it down and out.
luff tension
The fuller the cut of the sail, the greater the problem of maintaining luff tension when an in-mast sail is shortened. The problem, very simply, is the lack of a cunningham. If you "reef" to the point of the sail's greatest draft, the new luff will necessarily be loose. Or at least that was my experience with the OEM sail. I'd get my worst shape at about 80%. The vertical battens solve this problem when you use them as reef points, because the battens keep the luff tight, functioning like internal cunninhams. (Interestingly, a similar problem is encountered with in-boom furling, because those sails functionally lose their outhaul when reefed, requiring them to use full battens and shorten sail according to the batten points, so that the battens will maintain foot tension.)
The fuller the cut of the sail, the greater the problem of maintaining luff tension when an in-mast sail is shortened. The problem, very simply, is the lack of a cunningham. If you "reef" to the point of the sail's greatest draft, the new luff will necessarily be loose. Or at least that was my experience with the OEM sail. I'd get my worst shape at about 80%. The vertical battens solve this problem when you use them as reef points, because the battens keep the luff tight, functioning like internal cunninhams. (Interestingly, a similar problem is encountered with in-boom furling, because those sails functionally lose their outhaul when reefed, requiring them to use full battens and shorten sail according to the batten points, so that the battens will maintain foot tension.)
Here's another thought on flutter
I finally broke down and read the rig tuning portion of the manual. If you look, the mast bend is significant'y different for the furling main than the standard main, by 6 inches!!. I went alooked at my main, and now am convinced the pre bend was set up incorrectly. I will measure this weekend to confirm and let you all know. This is an issue, as the shape of the sail would never be as designed, and would cause flutter that could not be removed. I have not had the same issues as some, with severe flutter, but I can never get ALL of it out of the sail. Will get back to you all when I have more info.
I finally broke down and read the rig tuning portion of the manual. If you look, the mast bend is significant'y different for the furling main than the standard main, by 6 inches!!. I went alooked at my main, and now am convinced the pre bend was set up incorrectly. I will measure this weekend to confirm and let you all know. This is an issue, as the shape of the sail would never be as designed, and would cause flutter that could not be removed. I have not had the same issues as some, with severe flutter, but I can never get ALL of it out of the sail. Will get back to you all when I have more info.
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