We need to buy a new mainsail for our new (to us) Pearson 31. I want something to make lowering & stowing the sail easier since I already have trouble "man-handling" our Catalina 250 mainsail. ideally, we'd wait a season & get used to the boat before buying, but the boat's current main is ripped so we need to order a sail ASAP so we'll have it by spring when we bring the boat home from Annapolis. We will get a fully battened main. The current owner has lazy jacks, but thinks they're a "pain" with the sail getting "hung up". My husband Dan isn't fond of lazy jacks either. i've seem the dutchman system on some newer Catalina's, but I've also seen the little strings running down the sails broken on most of the boats I've seen - even the new ones. The Doyle stack-pack looks interesting, but I've never seen one in person. So... Does anyone have a "stack-pack"? What do you think of it? Any other suggestions?
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Probably lazyjacks.
In order of preference: 1) Furling boom - too expensive. 2) Furling main - see #1. plus small main. 3) Dutchman - must always have a topping lift and the boom has to be in alignment. Plus holes in the main and I have read of stains from the cringles(grommets). 4) Stack Pack - still requires lazyjacks. 5) Lazyjacks that store at the mast - only deploy if absolutely necessary. Mine are against the mast until I need them. Look up EZ-Jax. Cheap solution.
In order of preference: 1) Furling boom - too expensive. 2) Furling main - see #1. plus small main. 3) Dutchman - must always have a topping lift and the boom has to be in alignment. Plus holes in the main and I have read of stains from the cringles(grommets). 4) Stack Pack - still requires lazyjacks. 5) Lazyjacks that store at the mast - only deploy if absolutely necessary. Mine are against the mast until I need them. Look up EZ-Jax. Cheap solution.
No Easy Answer
Nothing will be totally satisfactory in my opinion. It's funny, on the Med, the majority of boats have stack-pack type arrangements in Italy and Spain. Get around to the Atlantic coast, and they are conventional. I had two stack packs and replaced them with Lazy Jacks, the most current one rigged retractible so that I can use a standard sail cover. I didn't like the pack hanging while underway and to fold it up was as much of a pain as a conventional sail cover. And, the battens will still get fouled at times. I also found the zippers to be a pain and had replaced them both within five years. Having said all that, I don't think there is a clear winner among any of them, so I'd just stay simple with lazy jacks. RD
Nothing will be totally satisfactory in my opinion. It's funny, on the Med, the majority of boats have stack-pack type arrangements in Italy and Spain. Get around to the Atlantic coast, and they are conventional. I had two stack packs and replaced them with Lazy Jacks, the most current one rigged retractible so that I can use a standard sail cover. I didn't like the pack hanging while underway and to fold it up was as much of a pain as a conventional sail cover. And, the battens will still get fouled at times. I also found the zippers to be a pain and had replaced them both within five years. Having said all that, I don't think there is a clear winner among any of them, so I'd just stay simple with lazy jacks. RD
Not an option
I know that this is not an option but... I bought a new boat last year with an in mast furling main. The main is smaller than a battened main but that really doesn't make much difference because there is so much advantage to having a sail that is loose footed. Using the outhaul I can really get a fine wing shape that matches the jib. Mega slot action!! Also having a sail that is infinately reefable is just great. Plus I can do it all from the cockpit. I have been sailing for 30 years. This is my first furling main. I will never go back!
I know that this is not an option but... I bought a new boat last year with an in mast furling main. The main is smaller than a battened main but that really doesn't make much difference because there is so much advantage to having a sail that is loose footed. Using the outhaul I can really get a fine wing shape that matches the jib. Mega slot action!! Also having a sail that is infinately reefable is just great. Plus I can do it all from the cockpit. I have been sailing for 30 years. This is my first furling main. I will never go back!
dutchman
i have the dutchman, love it, and have no idea where this staining nonsense comes from, i don't even understand how it's possible. there has to be a reason that such as catalina and sabre now make the dutchman standard, as this costs the maker extra. what exactly is the problem of having a full time topping lift? none i have ever encountered. there will come a time - maybe many times - when you will need or want to get the main down in a hurry and have it flaked; then you will have a dutchmnan or be sorry you don't.
i have the dutchman, love it, and have no idea where this staining nonsense comes from, i don't even understand how it's possible. there has to be a reason that such as catalina and sabre now make the dutchman standard, as this costs the maker extra. what exactly is the problem of having a full time topping lift? none i have ever encountered. there will come a time - maybe many times - when you will need or want to get the main down in a hurry and have it flaked; then you will have a dutchmnan or be sorry you don't.
Dutchman for me
I had lazy jacks on different boats in the 25' range and found them more of a pain than a help. My Catalina 320 came with the Dutchman flaking system. If it is adjusted properly, it is a great invention. I have only had to replace the lines once in 10 years. I have had no problem with stains near the grommets.
I had lazy jacks on different boats in the 25' range and found them more of a pain than a help. My Catalina 320 came with the Dutchman flaking system. If it is adjusted properly, it is a great invention. I have only had to replace the lines once in 10 years. I have had no problem with stains near the grommets.
azy jacks, dutchman, stack-pack, which one??
I have had a Dutchman system for a few years on my O'Day 272LE. I did not have any problem with it breaking, but I believe it works far better on a new crisp sail than on an older one. I would give it a B on its report card, but it sure made it possible for me to easily single hand and furl the main (which I always found the single hardest thing to do). i also rigged a small downhaul line on a snatchblock to facilitate getting the main down. I have just ordered a new boat (Beneteau 323) and have tentatively decided to go Stak Pak rather than furling main because I remain a little uncomfortable with the possiblity that an in-mast furling main could get stuck part way and leave me in a whole lot of trouble. I have to admit, though, that most of the people on line who have the furling main seem to love it.
I have had a Dutchman system for a few years on my O'Day 272LE. I did not have any problem with it breaking, but I believe it works far better on a new crisp sail than on an older one. I would give it a B on its report card, but it sure made it possible for me to easily single hand and furl the main (which I always found the single hardest thing to do). i also rigged a small downhaul line on a snatchblock to facilitate getting the main down. I have just ordered a new boat (Beneteau 323) and have tentatively decided to go Stak Pak rather than furling main because I remain a little uncomfortable with the possiblity that an in-mast furling main could get stuck part way and leave me in a whole lot of trouble. I have to admit, though, that most of the people on line who have the furling main seem to love it.
Stack Pack is Work
When we bought our Catalina 30 it came with the Stack Pack and Lazy Jack combo. After years of mainsail flaking and stacking on the booms of many sailboats, dangerous flying bungees and that crazy balancing act on a rolling deck to get everything stowed would now be a thing of the past. NOT!!!! The trouble with the Stack Pack and Lazy Jacks is you still have to send someone on deck to make sure the battens do not get caught in the Lazy Jacks when raising and lowering. Oh, sure you can minimize the trouble by making sure your dead into the wind when raising or lowering, or attach bungees from the lazy jacks to the shrouds to maximize space, but in the final analysis, I would prefer the good ole flake it and lay it down and secure the mainsail with bungee to the boom. Call me old fashion, but after a full year of sailing with the stackpack and jacks, I do not give it a thumbs up...you must be in the ideal conditions for success with these things. Bob
When we bought our Catalina 30 it came with the Stack Pack and Lazy Jack combo. After years of mainsail flaking and stacking on the booms of many sailboats, dangerous flying bungees and that crazy balancing act on a rolling deck to get everything stowed would now be a thing of the past. NOT!!!! The trouble with the Stack Pack and Lazy Jacks is you still have to send someone on deck to make sure the battens do not get caught in the Lazy Jacks when raising and lowering. Oh, sure you can minimize the trouble by making sure your dead into the wind when raising or lowering, or attach bungees from the lazy jacks to the shrouds to maximize space, but in the final analysis, I would prefer the good ole flake it and lay it down and secure the mainsail with bungee to the boom. Call me old fashion, but after a full year of sailing with the stackpack and jacks, I do not give it a thumbs up...you must be in the ideal conditions for success with these things. Bob
Agreed..Stack Pack is work...
friend got one on his new Beneteau and it's not as simple as he/I thought it would be. Dealers say it's the new sails and once they get a memory of folds, it will work easier. I'm skeptical. Plus the work to get the pack closed isn't much less than a traditional sail cover. I have Dutchman on my 37.5, and love it. The lines do wear over years, in fact I had to replace mine once. But what doesn't? And, they are comparatively easy to replace. I certainly don't see the number of broken lines that you suggest seeing in your post. But most folks around me use their boats, and if you do, the Dutchman becomes second nature. Just drop it, stick tie or two on it, motor in and deal with it after you're docked. I had lazyjacks on my former H31 and wouldn't go back. PLUS, the friend's Beneteau/stack pack still gets caught in the lines going up, just like with traditional lazyjacks.
friend got one on his new Beneteau and it's not as simple as he/I thought it would be. Dealers say it's the new sails and once they get a memory of folds, it will work easier. I'm skeptical. Plus the work to get the pack closed isn't much less than a traditional sail cover. I have Dutchman on my 37.5, and love it. The lines do wear over years, in fact I had to replace mine once. But what doesn't? And, they are comparatively easy to replace. I certainly don't see the number of broken lines that you suggest seeing in your post. But most folks around me use their boats, and if you do, the Dutchman becomes second nature. Just drop it, stick tie or two on it, motor in and deal with it after you're docked. I had lazyjacks on my former H31 and wouldn't go back. PLUS, the friend's Beneteau/stack pack still gets caught in the lines going up, just like with traditional lazyjacks.
Lazy Lacks
I have never used the Dutchman or the Stack-pack so i can not and will not attempt to compare it to lazy jacks. what i can say is... at first i had a problem with my battens gettin hung up on the lazy jacks when i raised the main. Then i found a site on the internet where they suggested that the lazy jacks be mounted on the spreaders , one foot out from the mast on each side, instead of on the mast. They work great. They worked out very well with no problem on my Mac25, my Catalina 25 , my Bruce roberts 31/32 and my current catalina 30. I am going to make a sketch to post on another forum in a few days, when i do, i will let this forum know about it. And yes, they are retractable and dont interfere with my sail cover.
I have never used the Dutchman or the Stack-pack so i can not and will not attempt to compare it to lazy jacks. what i can say is... at first i had a problem with my battens gettin hung up on the lazy jacks when i raised the main. Then i found a site on the internet where they suggested that the lazy jacks be mounted on the spreaders , one foot out from the mast on each side, instead of on the mast. They work great. They worked out very well with no problem on my Mac25, my Catalina 25 , my Bruce roberts 31/32 and my current catalina 30. I am going to make a sketch to post on another forum in a few days, when i do, i will let this forum know about it. And yes, they are retractable and dont interfere with my sail cover.
Dutchman for me also
I have a Dutchman system on my 37.5 also and I really like it. One of the lines broke right after I purchased the boat but replacement was easy and cost about $18. Sail comes down nice and lays right on the boom. Yea and what is the problem with a topping lift? Unless you have a $800 rigid vang you better have a topping lift or its going to hurt when you drop the main. Ouch! I have noticed some stains from the lines not the grommets but I think it is just from age as the main is original and I'm sure it has never been washed. My boat neighbor has a lazyjack system and man it sure looks like a lot of stuff to tangle up the battens. I like things simple. Tom s/v At Last
I have a Dutchman system on my 37.5 also and I really like it. One of the lines broke right after I purchased the boat but replacement was easy and cost about $18. Sail comes down nice and lays right on the boom. Yea and what is the problem with a topping lift? Unless you have a $800 rigid vang you better have a topping lift or its going to hurt when you drop the main. Ouch! I have noticed some stains from the lines not the grommets but I think it is just from age as the main is original and I'm sure it has never been washed. My boat neighbor has a lazyjack system and man it sure looks like a lot of stuff to tangle up the battens. I like things simple. Tom s/v At Last
Dutchman here too!
We are on our second Dutchmam and love it too. I have been on a couple of boats with Lazy Jack systems and really think that they are a pain. You really need to worry about raising the sail, so the battens do not get fouled in the system. If I were having a new sail made I would probably consider full battens only in the top two positions, with partial battens in the lower two positions. If you decide to go with a Dutchman, you may want to consider a local sailmaker to assist with the installation. I also got the adjustable topping lift, but I do not think I would do that again either.
We are on our second Dutchmam and love it too. I have been on a couple of boats with Lazy Jack systems and really think that they are a pain. You really need to worry about raising the sail, so the battens do not get fouled in the system. If I were having a new sail made I would probably consider full battens only in the top two positions, with partial battens in the lower two positions. If you decide to go with a Dutchman, you may want to consider a local sailmaker to assist with the installation. I also got the adjustable topping lift, but I do not think I would do that again either.
Request sailortonyb e mail me
Tony b, please e mail me if you will, the info on your set up. I am considering EZ jacks next spring on my Cat30 tall rig. Thanks jybiom@yahoo.com
Tony b, please e mail me if you will, the info on your set up. I am considering EZ jacks next spring on my Cat30 tall rig. Thanks jybiom@yahoo.com
Duchman came standard on my 310
And I love it, easy to use and works like a charm-even single handed
And I love it, easy to use and works like a charm-even single handed
i seem to remember
there is a website that exdplains a "good" or "better" lazy jack system. A friend has the old design on his 32' and it is a pin in the butt. However, in the system I saw, the lazyjacks follow the boom and the mast and are completely out of the way during the sail so there is no way they could snag the battens or anything else. It looked like a simple way to do it, and it looks like it can be made to improve the old way of lazyjacks. Search the net and I am sure you can find it.
there is a website that exdplains a "good" or "better" lazy jack system. A friend has the old design on his 32' and it is a pin in the butt. However, in the system I saw, the lazyjacks follow the boom and the mast and are completely out of the way during the sail so there is no way they could snag the battens or anything else. It looked like a simple way to do it, and it looks like it can be made to improve the old way of lazyjacks. Search the net and I am sure you can find it.
Options?
Cathy, All mainsail handling systems have serious drawbacks and often it is a matter of choosing the least worst! I list these below for your consideration:- 1) No System: Sail falls everywhere, particularly if it is not fitted with sail slugs. These loose 2% of the sail's power due to losses between mast & luff. 2) Dutchman: Sail droops off boom so a large sail obscures helmsman's view when motoring and boom needs to be topped up very high to allow vision. Also, dirty rain runs down the vertical lines and soils the sail. And these monofilament lines make permanent black rub marks on sailcloth regardless of how loose you have them. Sail cover is a pain to put on in a breeze because of complex shape. Often, in rough weather, sail does not lie obligingly evenly either side of boom making life difficult when reefing. 3) Lazy Jacks: Better, but batten ends get caught in jacks when raising sail. Often only satisfactory when dead into wind. Likewise un-reefing. Sometimes get caught when reefing too. Batten ends can miss jacks so sail falls off boom. Sail cover complex shape with many slots so slow to fit. Some systems can loosen these jacks to pull them out of the way. Adds complexity but solves problem. 4) Stack Pack Type: Many versions available, none seem to have used common sense to overcome original inventors' shortcomings, e.g. zip opens at aft end of boom! - just made copies of originals. Sail cover always present and looks ugly. Also doesn't do anything for aerodynamics of bottom part of sail. Some have a detachable 'boot' to cover forward end of sail. Makes for more hassle but overcomes much flapping. Once tamed quick & easy to stow sail before entering harbour - if you do this! 5) In Boom: Looks V good on boats which have it sorted. Boom angle very critical for proper rolling/ unrolling. Have spent many hours re-building or adjusting same with little positive outcome. Allegedly prone to jamming. Reefing can be difficult in strong winds due to poor purchase of reefing drum lines. 6) In Mast: Okay for those who don't give a damn about size or shape of their sail or its aerodynamics - or the stability of their yacht. New Hunters now use longer mast & boom to replace losses. Allegedly prone to jamming, no makes are immune from this. Batten options severely limited and vertical battens help - a little. So there you have it from my perspective. Sincere apologies to all those devotees out there. All these systems work well on small boats under about 32' because you are strong enough to be master of the sail. On my 376 the sail can win, particularly when I am single handed and pirouetting about on the coachroof in a breeze with waves throwing the boat about and the boom swinging wildly. I use a home made stack pack with the jacks taken vertically to the topping lift. Vertical - no jamming - huh! Only works moderately well though. Regards.
Cathy, All mainsail handling systems have serious drawbacks and often it is a matter of choosing the least worst! I list these below for your consideration:- 1) No System: Sail falls everywhere, particularly if it is not fitted with sail slugs. These loose 2% of the sail's power due to losses between mast & luff. 2) Dutchman: Sail droops off boom so a large sail obscures helmsman's view when motoring and boom needs to be topped up very high to allow vision. Also, dirty rain runs down the vertical lines and soils the sail. And these monofilament lines make permanent black rub marks on sailcloth regardless of how loose you have them. Sail cover is a pain to put on in a breeze because of complex shape. Often, in rough weather, sail does not lie obligingly evenly either side of boom making life difficult when reefing. 3) Lazy Jacks: Better, but batten ends get caught in jacks when raising sail. Often only satisfactory when dead into wind. Likewise un-reefing. Sometimes get caught when reefing too. Batten ends can miss jacks so sail falls off boom. Sail cover complex shape with many slots so slow to fit. Some systems can loosen these jacks to pull them out of the way. Adds complexity but solves problem. 4) Stack Pack Type: Many versions available, none seem to have used common sense to overcome original inventors' shortcomings, e.g. zip opens at aft end of boom! - just made copies of originals. Sail cover always present and looks ugly. Also doesn't do anything for aerodynamics of bottom part of sail. Some have a detachable 'boot' to cover forward end of sail. Makes for more hassle but overcomes much flapping. Once tamed quick & easy to stow sail before entering harbour - if you do this! 5) In Boom: Looks V good on boats which have it sorted. Boom angle very critical for proper rolling/ unrolling. Have spent many hours re-building or adjusting same with little positive outcome. Allegedly prone to jamming. Reefing can be difficult in strong winds due to poor purchase of reefing drum lines. 6) In Mast: Okay for those who don't give a damn about size or shape of their sail or its aerodynamics - or the stability of their yacht. New Hunters now use longer mast & boom to replace losses. Allegedly prone to jamming, no makes are immune from this. Batten options severely limited and vertical battens help - a little. So there you have it from my perspective. Sincere apologies to all those devotees out there. All these systems work well on small boats under about 32' because you are strong enough to be master of the sail. On my 376 the sail can win, particularly when I am single handed and pirouetting about on the coachroof in a breeze with waves throwing the boat about and the boom swinging wildly. I use a home made stack pack with the jacks taken vertically to the topping lift. Vertical - no jamming - huh! Only works moderately well though. Regards.
I have the Dutchman system
on my under one year old Catalina 270. Works great, the sail developed a "flakeing" memory rather quickly and I store the sail in a flaked position without folding it up during the winter. I'll probably buy a new, bigger boat before I get stains, breaks, etc.
on my under one year old Catalina 270. Works great, the sail developed a "flakeing" memory rather quickly and I store the sail in a flaked position without folding it up during the winter. I'll probably buy a new, bigger boat before I get stains, breaks, etc.
My Experience with the Dutchman System
Cathy I have a full batten main sail with the Dutchman system on my Catalina 387, I did spend about 1 hour adjusting everything when it was new. My sail has never dropped off the boom, it flakes nicely every time and never obscures the helmsman vision. I have no soiling on the sail, even in the rain. I don't adjust the height of the boom when motoring, it stays the same height. I have absolutely no black rub marks on my sail cloth. My boom is over 15 feet long and the only difference in my sail cover is 2 zippers, not a big problem to deal with. I have never experienced any problem reefing, in fact the opposite is true as the sail flakes on the boom and is easily secured in position. I have sailed boats with both Lazy Jacks and Doyle Stack Pack. Both my wife and I prefer the Dutchman system. The only change I may make would be to install a Batt Car system to make it easier to raise and lower the main, but this would be the same with any of the systems that you are looking at. I hope you continue to get feedback from people that have actually used the systems you are interested in. Greg
Cathy I have a full batten main sail with the Dutchman system on my Catalina 387, I did spend about 1 hour adjusting everything when it was new. My sail has never dropped off the boom, it flakes nicely every time and never obscures the helmsman vision. I have no soiling on the sail, even in the rain. I don't adjust the height of the boom when motoring, it stays the same height. I have absolutely no black rub marks on my sail cloth. My boom is over 15 feet long and the only difference in my sail cover is 2 zippers, not a big problem to deal with. I have never experienced any problem reefing, in fact the opposite is true as the sail flakes on the boom and is easily secured in position. I have sailed boats with both Lazy Jacks and Doyle Stack Pack. Both my wife and I prefer the Dutchman system. The only change I may make would be to install a Batt Car system to make it easier to raise and lower the main, but this would be the same with any of the systems that you are looking at. I hope you continue to get feedback from people that have actually used the systems you are interested in. Greg
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