I was out a couple days ago in maybe 10 knots and could not get my Lancer 25 to come about. I'm admittedly not a great sailor, but had a very good sailer with me. We couldn't figure it out. This boat has showed a similar tendancy before. Regular jib and main up, boat sitting a little lower aft with an outboard on the back. I tried backing the jib to push it through the wind, but that didn't work. Actually started the engine to push around. Any thoughts or advice? Tried to have good speed and not be way off the wind to start the tack, then move the tiller decisively.
Lancer 25 doesn't come about readily
- Thread starter MSK
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All I can think of is that you stalled before going through the eye of the wind. When sailing there is true wind and apparant wind. As you start your tack you need to be close to the true wind before pushing through so--- keep trimming as you turn to maximise speed at maximum trim as your sails start luffing fall back a tad maximise speed and then tack decisively and smoothly. Hope this helps???????
A Little Experience >>> Updated 1236 Hours
Your Lancer is a PowerSailor as I recall. In order for them to achieve planing speed, they have a smallish keel and elliptical rudder. At least my Dad's 29 did. I found that the boat sailed pretty well in light air as a result and was very good on a reach in heavier winds (assuming the engine was raised). However, the trade off is that it would stall in a tack pretty easily in light air. What I did was to crack off first to build boat speed, and then bring it through, being careful not to hard over too quickly (to avoid stalling the rudder) and then to let the jib carry the bow through by letting it backwind. Also, I found a similar problem when docking in that the outboard would stall the rudder in reverse. The key seemed to be to have enough way on to assure rudder response and be sure the boat was lined up before hitting reverse. And, when backing, to be sure you were lined up, give it lots of reverse throttle to get way on and then cut it to let the rudder take over. The other thing I noticed was that when you were really powering on a reach, I had to be sure I didn't heel too much or I would risk losing rudder control.
All in all, these things are just quirks and managable. if you sail it like a cat, it makes more sense and manuvering under power is much like a single-engine trawler.
Oops: I was thinking of Brian's boat when I wrote this and didn't notice you had not specified this was a PowerSailer. If it is, the points should be valid. However, they may not be with the trailerable 25 with the step-in keel. Then again, since it's a shoal draft and smallish rudder too, it may just be relevent.
Brian: did you move the boat to Oceanside already?
Your Lancer is a PowerSailor as I recall. In order for them to achieve planing speed, they have a smallish keel and elliptical rudder. At least my Dad's 29 did. I found that the boat sailed pretty well in light air as a result and was very good on a reach in heavier winds (assuming the engine was raised). However, the trade off is that it would stall in a tack pretty easily in light air. What I did was to crack off first to build boat speed, and then bring it through, being careful not to hard over too quickly (to avoid stalling the rudder) and then to let the jib carry the bow through by letting it backwind. Also, I found a similar problem when docking in that the outboard would stall the rudder in reverse. The key seemed to be to have enough way on to assure rudder response and be sure the boat was lined up before hitting reverse. And, when backing, to be sure you were lined up, give it lots of reverse throttle to get way on and then cut it to let the rudder take over. The other thing I noticed was that when you were really powering on a reach, I had to be sure I didn't heel too much or I would risk losing rudder control.
All in all, these things are just quirks and managable. if you sail it like a cat, it makes more sense and manuvering under power is much like a single-engine trawler.
Oops: I was thinking of Brian's boat when I wrote this and didn't notice you had not specified this was a PowerSailer. If it is, the points should be valid. However, they may not be with the trailerable 25 with the step-in keel. Then again, since it's a shoal draft and smallish rudder too, it may just be relevent.
Brian: did you move the boat to Oceanside already?
Tacking
Not sure i can help you because I'm not familiar with your boat. If it is similiar to to a C25 all I can say is I never had trouble tacking that boat.
In general, the problem most mates have with tacking is they rush through it and it ends up looking like a Chinese fire drill. Actually, the Chinese fire drill looks better!! You need speed to get through it because near and after the head to wind sequence your drifting. You have to hold the jib in position until the last possable minute and that is after it backwinds and then you cut the jib sheet. In the mean time, the trimmer on the lazy sheet is taking up slack so the sheets arn't flying all over the place and in the water.
Here's the thing most trimmers forget. Just before the head to wind position the jib breaks either evenly or top or bottom first. The trimmer has to read that situation and convey it to the lazy trimmer. Why is that necessary? The reason is that the breaking determines the new fairlead position. Additionally, it is easier to move the pin type fairlead when there is no pressure on the jib sheet. this is just common sense. The other alternative is to step on the sheet and fight the pin. If you have an adjustable fairlead system the job is a snap.
Not sure i can help you because I'm not familiar with your boat. If it is similiar to to a C25 all I can say is I never had trouble tacking that boat.
In general, the problem most mates have with tacking is they rush through it and it ends up looking like a Chinese fire drill. Actually, the Chinese fire drill looks better!! You need speed to get through it because near and after the head to wind sequence your drifting. You have to hold the jib in position until the last possable minute and that is after it backwinds and then you cut the jib sheet. In the mean time, the trimmer on the lazy sheet is taking up slack so the sheets arn't flying all over the place and in the water.
Here's the thing most trimmers forget. Just before the head to wind position the jib breaks either evenly or top or bottom first. The trimmer has to read that situation and convey it to the lazy trimmer. Why is that necessary? The reason is that the breaking determines the new fairlead position. Additionally, it is easier to move the pin type fairlead when there is no pressure on the jib sheet. this is just common sense. The other alternative is to step on the sheet and fight the pin. If you have an adjustable fairlead system the job is a snap.
MSK
The Lancer 25 has a large keel and a very small rudder. If you 'force' the small rudder with a lot of arm/hand pressure during a turn you will drag the rudder sideways ... and the boat will rapidly come to a STOP.
Try using the absolutely LIGHTEST *fingertip pressure* on the wheel/tiller when tacking; dont FORCE the wheel over. Turn the wheel: begin the turn while *concentrating* on how much pressure you are putting into the wheel AND keep that constant *pressure* against the wheel all-the-way-through the turn. What will happen is that when the boat is moving at its speed a little bit of pressure will only result in a little bit of turn; but, as the boat continues to slow the SAME pressure will yield greater and greater amounts of applied rudder .... until you go through the eye of the turn.
Its all too easy to get a small rudder turned cross-wise to the boats direction of travel and that 'cross-wise' position will cause the rudder to stall and stop the boat. S-L-O-W turns on such a boat are usually the 'fastest'.
Tip: right before you begin to tack, pull REAL hard on the mainsheet - as hard as you can without 'busting' something. This will cause the aft end / leech of the mainsail to become 'cupped' which will increase 'weather helm' (increases heel) and that will help steer the boat into the early stages of the tack *without using any rudder*. (This is how the Wright Brothers 'warped' the wings on the Kitty Hawk Flyer to 'steer' it.) Dont forget to release the extra tension back to normal on the next 'leg'. Top notch racers practice such all the time ... in fact they many times practice steering the boat using sail shape/trim to steer the boat ... leaving the rudder/wheel entirely alone !!!!! This insures that they arent 'dragging (and stalling) the rudder'.
Hope this helps
The Lancer 25 has a large keel and a very small rudder. If you 'force' the small rudder with a lot of arm/hand pressure during a turn you will drag the rudder sideways ... and the boat will rapidly come to a STOP.
Try using the absolutely LIGHTEST *fingertip pressure* on the wheel/tiller when tacking; dont FORCE the wheel over. Turn the wheel: begin the turn while *concentrating* on how much pressure you are putting into the wheel AND keep that constant *pressure* against the wheel all-the-way-through the turn. What will happen is that when the boat is moving at its speed a little bit of pressure will only result in a little bit of turn; but, as the boat continues to slow the SAME pressure will yield greater and greater amounts of applied rudder .... until you go through the eye of the turn.
Its all too easy to get a small rudder turned cross-wise to the boats direction of travel and that 'cross-wise' position will cause the rudder to stall and stop the boat. S-L-O-W turns on such a boat are usually the 'fastest'.
Tip: right before you begin to tack, pull REAL hard on the mainsheet - as hard as you can without 'busting' something. This will cause the aft end / leech of the mainsail to become 'cupped' which will increase 'weather helm' (increases heel) and that will help steer the boat into the early stages of the tack *without using any rudder*. (This is how the Wright Brothers 'warped' the wings on the Kitty Hawk Flyer to 'steer' it.) Dont forget to release the extra tension back to normal on the next 'leg'. Top notch racers practice such all the time ... in fact they many times practice steering the boat using sail shape/trim to steer the boat ... leaving the rudder/wheel entirely alone !!!!! This insures that they arent 'dragging (and stalling) the rudder'.
Hope this helps
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The reason the post was moved from where it was is probably due to the fact that MSK wasn't getting a response to his question and I assume you were one of the folks that didn't respond to him. The problem is that sail trim questions get lost on the other forums, which are about 99% maintenance problems anyway.
Brian D is working hard to make the forums here the best on the internet and you may not like compartmentalization but your in a small minority. If you don't want the sail trim posts moved then start answering them where you find them and give complete answers.
Anyway, what your suggesting to MSK is that he power up the boat before tacking, which is a good idea, but you only mentioned he use the mainsheet. The mainsail has 8 primary controls and the jib has 6. What do you suggest he do with the rest of sail trim controls for the mainsail and jib to power up the boat?
Maybe Brian D should move this question over to the maintenance forum and we'll see what kind of a response we get there.
Brian D is working hard to make the forums here the best on the internet and you may not like compartmentalization but your in a small minority. If you don't want the sail trim posts moved then start answering them where you find them and give complete answers.
Anyway, what your suggesting to MSK is that he power up the boat before tacking, which is a good idea, but you only mentioned he use the mainsheet. The mainsail has 8 primary controls and the jib has 6. What do you suggest he do with the rest of sail trim controls for the mainsail and jib to power up the boat?
Maybe Brian D should move this question over to the maintenance forum and we'll see what kind of a response we get there.
I had a Lancer 25 for a few years and had this same experience. What were the conditions you were sailing in? What was your speed? What size is you genoa? You said jib, and if it is a true jib I think a larger head sail would help. I had a jib on mine also.
If you were sailing against the wind and tide those are tough conditions to tack the blunt keeled L25 in. I was out in conditions like that and it was extremely difficult to progress as she kept stalling mid-tack when a wave would push the bow back in the wrong direction.
I agree with posters that say you have to be careful not to put the rudder over too hard as on the L25 it will go over enough to act as a brake.
If you are in a bind you can actually just fall around 270 degrees to catch the other tack, but you will lose progress doing so. I forget what this maneuver is called, but I am sure someone will chime in.
You should also think about your trim and evaluate your mast rake. If she is squatting too much it will definitely impact how the L25 will sail into the wind and it will get worse if you are sailing into the waves. I will also put your cockpit drains perilously close to the water. If the mast isn't raked aft slightly you it will also impact pointing ability. The L25 is a fairly light boat (3500-4000 lbs) with a very flat bottom. I found mine to be very sensitive to trim and I would go there first as it is an easy fix. Move some gear forward into the head lockers (no vee berth on the L25, the head is forward with storage on either side) or pump out your water tank if it is full.
By the way, I reserve the right to be WAY off base on these finer points of sail and look forward with interest to comments :stirthepot:
If you were sailing against the wind and tide those are tough conditions to tack the blunt keeled L25 in. I was out in conditions like that and it was extremely difficult to progress as she kept stalling mid-tack when a wave would push the bow back in the wrong direction.
I agree with posters that say you have to be careful not to put the rudder over too hard as on the L25 it will go over enough to act as a brake.
If you are in a bind you can actually just fall around 270 degrees to catch the other tack, but you will lose progress doing so. I forget what this maneuver is called, but I am sure someone will chime in.
You should also think about your trim and evaluate your mast rake. If she is squatting too much it will definitely impact how the L25 will sail into the wind and it will get worse if you are sailing into the waves. I will also put your cockpit drains perilously close to the water. If the mast isn't raked aft slightly you it will also impact pointing ability. The L25 is a fairly light boat (3500-4000 lbs) with a very flat bottom. I found mine to be very sensitive to trim and I would go there first as it is an easy fix. Move some gear forward into the head lockers (no vee berth on the L25, the head is forward with storage on either side) or pump out your water tank if it is full.
By the way, I reserve the right to be WAY off base on these finer points of sail and look forward with interest to comments :stirthepot:
sorry Don...
Boats with small rudders that are not totally/deeply immersed often cavitate (& stall) and the issue often is NOT sail trim but a basic sailboat design fault/error that leads to the difficulty. The L25 also doesnt have much 'rocker' inbuilt to the hull design/shape so that will also make it hard to 'turn'.
Boats with small rudders that are not totally/deeply immersed often cavitate (& stall) and the issue often is NOT sail trim but a basic sailboat design fault/error that leads to the difficulty. The L25 also doesnt have much 'rocker' inbuilt to the hull design/shape so that will also make it hard to 'turn'.
Just to confirm what Rich H said...the L25 is essentially flat bottomed. The keel is about 2.5 feet wide and about 10 feet long and is blunt and about 10 inches wide where it terminates in front (if I recall the keel correctly...and I should...I painted one enough times). Draft is 3 feet. The boat and its 28 foot sister were designed to be maxi-trailerables. A lot of boat for the money, but with compromises necessitated to make it fit on a trailer.
MSK, you seem to have a problem of lee helm.
Every modern sailboat designed by a Naval Architect is expected to have weather helm. That is to say that if you are sailing along and let go of the tiller the boat will turn up into the wind, but the odd thing about it, is that the center of the sail plan is actually forward of the center of lateral resistance, so that means that lee helm is designed in. the reason for this is that as the boat heels the forward driving force of the sails is some distance off the line of drag or resistance of the hull. this produces a turning force into the wind called a weather couple which overcomes the lee helm of the sail placement and wants to turn the boat into the wind.
You don't have this weather helm so you can move your sail area aft by raking the mast aft, or move your center of resistance forward by adding weight forward, or reducing weight aft by removing weight aft, or all of the above. You can also increase your angle of heel by flying a bigger jib, like a genoa and you can go and sit to leeward as you tack, letting the jib loose sooner to shift your center of effort aft, switching sides as you come up into the wind and then going back to the windward side after you tack (a roll tack).
Maybe you should try all of the above. But a good sailor should have given you some productive advise
Good Luck
Joe S
Every modern sailboat designed by a Naval Architect is expected to have weather helm. That is to say that if you are sailing along and let go of the tiller the boat will turn up into the wind, but the odd thing about it, is that the center of the sail plan is actually forward of the center of lateral resistance, so that means that lee helm is designed in. the reason for this is that as the boat heels the forward driving force of the sails is some distance off the line of drag or resistance of the hull. this produces a turning force into the wind called a weather couple which overcomes the lee helm of the sail placement and wants to turn the boat into the wind.
You don't have this weather helm so you can move your sail area aft by raking the mast aft, or move your center of resistance forward by adding weight forward, or reducing weight aft by removing weight aft, or all of the above. You can also increase your angle of heel by flying a bigger jib, like a genoa and you can go and sit to leeward as you tack, letting the jib loose sooner to shift your center of effort aft, switching sides as you come up into the wind and then going back to the windward side after you tack (a roll tack).
Maybe you should try all of the above. But a good sailor should have given you some productive advise
Good Luck
Joe S
L25 What a coincidence.
I was in the same situation last Sunday sailing North on Hawk Channel in the Florida Keys.
First it was impossible with just the main. Sailing solo I somehow managed to hoist the storm jib. Still impossible. Then I eased up the main and voila ... Hard to handle but I did not end up in the Gulf Stream.
I would ease up east and gently stear her North. Wind was blowing 25-30 with 10-12' waves.
It was a blast and what a good sailboat she is.
I was in the same situation last Sunday sailing North on Hawk Channel in the Florida Keys.
First it was impossible with just the main. Sailing solo I somehow managed to hoist the storm jib. Still impossible. Then I eased up the main and voila ... Hard to handle but I did not end up in the Gulf Stream.
I would ease up east and gently stear her North. Wind was blowing 25-30 with 10-12' waves.
It was a blast and what a good sailboat she is.
I went out at Castaic Lake in Southern California today with 3 to 10 knots of wind and had absolutrly no problem with either tacking or jibing. In fact since we could not get the motor started we sailed away from the dock and sailed back to the dock using the main only. We used a 140 genoa sailing in the lake and the boat handled very well.
Duane "novelman"
Duane "novelman"
I have a 25 and have had similar problems. As stated in others posts, the 2 general causes are turning the rudder too fast(slamming), and not allowing it to backwind. However, I had an identical problem were I couldn't get it to backwind. Turns out I missed my block when rigging and the sheet went directly to the winch. Also, If you are just using a jib you have to jibe for turns.
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