Laclede chain

[colemj]

They thought they had HDG chain and it sucked. But it is highly unlikely that in fact they had HDG chain. Now, I can't say that with absolute certainty as I've never been asked to examine a case of this nature, but until someone can actually supply a correctly done metallurgical report that shows me the contrary, I'm not even remotely convinced. There are far too many other methods used on chain.
............

The fundamental problem is that there are many other methods of galvanizing chain that are widely distributed/sold.

You have implied a few times that the chain I had was not HDG. I've told you that I bought it from Defender in a sealed barrel from Acco. It may very well not have been HDG, but that would require either Acco selling something under false pretenses, or Defender intercepting the barrel in their warehouse, removing the chain and substituting it with something lesser, and sending it on as being what I paid them for.

Occum's razor suggests neither of those is likely, and the real issue was poor quality HDG.

I can't argue about "proof" because I have none that would be acceptable to you. When one is out cruising in small Caribe countries and their chain is failing, they don't have the time or resources to get a full metallurgical study performed. When 14 other boats in the same anchorage are also experiencing severe chain corrosion within a year, and they too bought the same chain from the same manufacturer from a credible reseller, this isn't a coincidence, nor do I think Acco is cheating people, nor that several resellers are in cahoots to switch out chain to their customers.

As for "blasting a manufacturer" without data to support it, all of the examples I've given have been a specific manufacturer, while I have not had this issue with two different manufacturers (one of them twice). As a consumer, I feel this is enough data.

If you bought two computers several years apart from manufacturer X and their power supplies all failed within a few months, then bought two computers several years apart from manufacturer Y, and another from manufacturer Z, and they all lasted many years without issue, would you feel restrained in writing a review stating that computers from manufacturer X failed, even though you did not do a forensic examination of the reason or cause beyond the power supplies failed? Or feel restrained from discussing it on a computer forum?

Would it change your mind if you met 14 other people with manufacturer X's computers that had also failed within a few months?

Mark

 

[dLj]

You have implied a few times that the chain I had was not HDG. I've told you that I bought it from Defender in a sealed barrel from Acco. It may very well not have been HDG, but that would require either Acco selling something under false pretenses, or Defender intercepting the barrel in their warehouse, removing the chain and substituting it with something lesser, and sending it on as being what I paid them for.

Occum's razor suggests neither of those is likely, and the real issue was poor quality HDG.

The reason that the truth is stranger than fiction, is that when writing fiction, it has to be believable. But that's not the case for the truth.

I'm not implying that I don't believe you had HDG chain - I don't believe you had HDG chain. Nothing implied about it.

I was working for multi-national company (I've worked for a couple actually), that had a long standing contract with a supplier to produce HDG parts for a specific product line that the company produced. We got a huge shipment in of HDG parts - at least certified to our parts - and the QC department said something didn't look right (smart QC inspectors actually).

Now let me clarify what I just said - the product came with documentation stating it met the requirements of the design documents of the product. That implied it was HDG galvanized product since the design documents stated clearly that Hot Dipped Galvanizing of a minimum specified weight was mandatory.

Upon investigation it was shown that rather than HDG galvanized parts, they were mechanically galvanized parts. A very different process and resulting product. It took numerous back and forth's before they even admitted it was mechanically galvanized - and then they said, but it's the same thing and the product meets the specified weight requirement! That caused another long set of back and forth's...

So you can carry on believing what you wish. I'll do the same. But unless you can provide me with tangible evidence - you didn't have HDG chain.

dj

 

[colemj]

I don't believe you had HDG chain. Nothing implied about it.

OK, but doesn't that make my point about Acco chain quality? You are believing that Acco sold a chain as HDG when it really wasn't. Twice over several years.

Or maybe you are saying Defender and Budget Marine are representing and selling non-HDG chain as Acco HDG?

So my complaints about Acco chain are indeed valid, but it is for a different reason than I thought? If so, then I think I have even more of a right to "blast the company", as they are misrepresenting their chain.

It even seems legally criminal to me, to the point of putting them out of business - which makes it difficult to believe it is the case.

I'm having a Occum's Razor issue, so I will continue to believe that Acco sells HDG chain, and Defender and Budget Marine represents it honestly, but its quality is lower than chain from other manufacturers.

Mark

 

[Hayden Watson]

They used to. I think it was imported and called "Boaters Choice" or something "branded" like that. West Marine used to sell it along with the higher quality version. I'm pretty sure it was HDG and not electroplated, and I think it may have been G3. I could be wrong about that, and it might not be sold anymore.

Mark

Here are the three finishes I have found on G43 chain.

 

[dLj]

It even seems legally criminal to me, to the point of putting them out of business - which makes it difficult to believe it is the case.

Well, it wouldn't be criminal - that implies a different level in our legal world. If indeed you had all the documentation of the chain you bought, showed it wasn't actually HDG, had all the documentation that the seller provided clearly stating it was HDG, you could certainly make a strong case for them to refund your money that you spent, and you even might get a few more bucks out of it. Maybe.

Now if it's really prevalent, and you can get. lets say 100 (I don't know what the number is here to start a class action lawsuit) other people to join in then you may be able to get a class action lawsuit going and it would cost the company more $'s - but you aren't even close to putting them out of business...

You may get them to change their manufacturing process and stop the problem. That is of course if they haven't already done so.

And of course you wouldn't get anything from Defender - they had nothing to do with producing the chain. They would have purchased it under their understanding the chain is HDG. Then you'd have to follow that back to the company Defender bought from. Then back to the manufacturer of the HDG, then possibly back to the manufacturer of the chain, then possibility back to the steel producer that the chain was made from. It depends upon how hard each level is willing to fight... It get really complicated and involved....

All of the above would cost a lot of time and money - you'd have to hire an expert, lawyer and be willing to spend a number of years in the court system. this stuff doesn't happen overnight...

Not to be cold hearted, look I feel for you chain problem - but the risk to the company - it's minimal.

Now, what your experience does say to me, is if I were to ever consider buying that chain, I'd ask for a ton of documentation, make sure it's clearly defined as HDG, and then I'd get a sample and metallurgically establish if in fact that was the case, or not, however it may fall out....

dj

p.s. It's actually in the purchasing phase when you have the best chance to make any kind of progress in making sure you get the correct chain. You must demand all the correct documentation - something you need to understand what that is - you then need to get a sample and evaluate it for conformance to their stated specifications - at that point if it does not meet the specifications - you have them in the cross hairs and believe me, then you can create a major problem for them. But really, how many people do this? Well, it's not 0 but darned close to it...

 

[dLj]

Here are the three finishes I have found on G43 chain.

The only one you want, as you know, is HDG for anchor chain...

By the way - if you are going to buy chain, look at my post above this one... during purchasing is when you want your ducks in a row...

dj

 

[Hayden Watson]

The only one you want, as you know, is HDG for anchor chain...

By the way - if you are going to buy chain, look at my post above this one... during purchasing is when you want your ducks in a row...

dj

I only purchase HDG. I only posted that to show that G43 is available in three finishes. As I stated in post #4, you want the one that is rough and dull because the electroplated is shinny and pretty [for a short time] before it rusts to pieces.

 

[dLj]

I only purchase HDG. I only posted that to show that G43 is available in three finishes. As I stated in post #4, you want the one that is rough and dull because the electroplated is shinny and pretty [for a short time] before it rusts to pieces.

Yes, but the visual difference between mechanically galvanized and hot dipped galvanized is not at all easy to see the difference by looking at it.

Mark's experience is not to be just dismissed, I think anyway.... I'd be looking to get a complete set of certifications from whatever supplier I'm buying from....

dj

 

[Foswick]

I pity the fool who uses anything but gold.

 

[colemj]

Here are the three finishes I have found on G43 chain.

Sure, but that is G43 chain in general. If you look at their specific G43 (and G30 and BBB) anchor/windlass chain sizes, they state these are only made in HDG and self color finishes. No electrogalvanized for them. Strangely, that wording about finish is only in the broad overview of windlass chain. If you actually go to the pages of the different types/grades/sizes of windlass chain, all of them state they are HDG.

So if you have a windlass, and order windlass chain, it is not possible to get anything other than what they represent as HDG. There is no way to get electrogalvanized chain for a windlass.

Unless they are lying through their teeth and ripping everyone off like dLj proposes.

Mark

 

[colemj]

Well, it wouldn't be criminal - that implies a different level in our legal world. If indeed you had all the documentation of the chain you bought, showed it wasn't actually HDG, had all the documentation that the seller provided clearly stating it was HDG, you could certainly make a strong case for them to refund your money that you spent, and you even might get a few more bucks out of it. Maybe.

Now if it's really prevalent, and you can get. lets say 100 (I don't know what the number is here to start a class action lawsuit) other people to join in then you may be able to get a class action lawsuit going and it would cost the company more $'s - but you aren't even close to putting them out of business...

You may get them to change their manufacturing process and stop the problem. That is of course if they haven't already done so.

And of course you wouldn't get anything from Defender - they had nothing to do with producing the chain. They would have purchased it under their understanding the chain is HDG. Then you'd have to follow that back to the company Defender bought from. Then back to the manufacturer of the HDG, then possibly back to the manufacturer of the chain, then possibility back to the steel producer that the chain was made from. It depends upon how hard each level is willing to fight... It get really complicated and involved....

All of the above would cost a lot of time and money - you'd have to hire an expert, lawyer and be willing to spend a number of years in the court system. this stuff doesn't happen overnight...

Not to be cold hearted, look I feel for you chain problem - but the risk to the company - it's minimal.

Now, what your experience does say to me, is if I were to ever consider buying that chain, I'd ask for a ton of documentation, make sure it's clearly defined as HDG, and then I'd get a sample and metallurgically establish if in fact that was the case, or not, however it may fall out....

dj

p.s. It's actually in the purchasing phase when you have the best chance to make any kind of progress in making sure you get the correct chain. You must demand all the correct documentation - something you need to understand what that is - you then need to get a sample and evaluate it for conformance to their stated specifications - at that point if it does not meet the specifications - you have them in the cross hairs and believe me, then you can create a major problem for them. But really, how many people do this? Well, it's not 0 but darned close to it...

Let's say this is true and Acco represents non-HDG as HDG chain. Both to their customers and to their distributors.

Then I am correct about "blasting the company" since this is a reprehensible practice regarding the technical legalities, and I am correct in warning people not to buy their product. I am also correct that Acco chain is worse than other manufacturer's wrt lifespan and rusting.

I find this explanation difficult to believe. It is too much risk with so many ways to get caught out for the company and so many ways for the deceit to be widely distributed.

I also don't understand how we got to this point when we both seem to be agreeing with everything I first wrote in Post #2. Albeit from different directions.

Mark

 

[dLj]

Let's say this is true and Acco represents non-HDG as HDG chain. Both to their customers and to their distributors.

The problem - this is 2025. You can't make this assumption. Note the post #5 with the opposite experience. You have absolutely no information that today that is what they are doing. You don't have any data that is what happened in your previous chain purchases. The only thing you actually know is you made two chain purchases and they didn't turn out the way you would have expected. That sucks.

If I really wanted to kick them where it hurts, i get a sample of their current chain along with all documentation that comes with the chain especially marketing information; get a sample of the chain you like with all the same documentation, and evaluate the two.

Then one could actually make a whole lot of noise, or not, depending upon what would be discovered.

dj

 

[colemj]

The problem - this is 2025. You can't make this assumption. Note the post #5 with the opposite experience. You have absolutely no information that today that is what they are doing. You don't have any data that is what happened in your previous chain purchases. The only thing you actually know is you made two chain purchases and they didn't turn out the way you would have expected. That sucks.

This is confusing. You are the one that said I didn't receive HDG chain (twice, 10yrs apart, from different major distributers). Now you are saying I can't make the assumption that it wasn't HDG.

FWIW, I've never made that assumption, and do believe I got HDG chain.

Yes, those purchases didn't turn out the way I had expected. To put in context, I have been full-time cruising for 16yrs and have made 6 chain purchases from three different manufacturers. I do know what should be expected of chain, and have significant comparisons, so a failure of those expectations is meaningful.

I also agree that others have not had this experience with Acco chain. I don't know if those cases use their chain less often, or use it in different temp/salinity waters, or if it is just hit or miss. For sure, our full-time use in tropic waters is hard on chain, and we don't expect lifespans others may get, but at the same time, we can compare manufacturers in the same environment and usage to see what is normal expectation.

I also know that I have met personally many people with the exact same experience. All cruisers in tropic waters. Chain and anchor talk comes up often, particularly in boat yards where chain is routinely getting replaced, so I get a lot of exposure to others' experiences. With the exception of some negative experiences with Maggi G70 chain, Acco is the only manufacturer that ever comes up wrt poor experience with chain.

The Maggi G70 experiences are interesting because Maggi came forward and explained that their HDG galvanizing process for that chain is necessarily different than that for their G43 chain, and that one could expect shorter lifespan of the coating. This implies that there are differences in HDG processes that do make a difference in practice.

Mark

 

[Terry Cox]

I looked on their web site and they do not list HDG G4 chain. I will give them a call.

Hi Hayden. Sheesh, you stirred up quite the hornet's nest of opinions. Have you talked with the Seattle company yet, and what did they have to say?