Quick question. I had my backstay shortened on my Oday Mariner before launching this year. The yard told me there were going to "re-swag" one of the fittings. How long (ie how much labor) is appropriate for a job like this? Thanks in advance, Chris
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Probably a fifteen minute job
...that they'd likely charge you a one-hour minimum for... $65? That's assuming they can do it at the shop. And, assuming you gave them the stay and there was no additional rigging on their part. If not at the shop, figure travel both ways for a rigger, less labor, but a mark-up. Probably the same. So... how close am I? RD
...that they'd likely charge you a one-hour minimum for... $65? That's assuming they can do it at the shop. And, assuming you gave them the stay and there was no additional rigging on their part. If not at the shop, figure travel both ways for a rigger, less labor, but a mark-up. Probably the same. So... how close am I? RD
New Standing Fitting
''The yard told me there were going to "re-swag" one of the fittings. How long (ie how much labor) is appropriate for a job like this?'' What's a SWAG, and how do you get it RE SWAGGED? I don't think there's a list or wholesale prioce on this work. I sure hope you knew what you were getting yourself into.
''The yard told me there were going to "re-swag" one of the fittings. How long (ie how much labor) is appropriate for a job like this?'' What's a SWAG, and how do you get it RE SWAGGED? I don't think there's a list or wholesale prioce on this work. I sure hope you knew what you were getting yourself into.
It Depends
It depends on a few things. Just the swag is $6 - 35 depending on the wire diameter. So if you brought the wire and fitting in, the wire was cut to the correct length so it will be correct *after* swagging, you pay the swagging fee. I'm a rigger ... If I have to drive to your boat, haul enough tools out to your boat to climb the mast, remove the stay, fight the pins that haven't been removed in 20 years, rig a temporary stay so I don't die and your mast stays up, take stay back to the shop, lay it out, measure twice, cut once, swag on the fitting, load it all back up, drive back to your boat ... oh, and you are too busy to meet me at the boat to help? ... well that means we send TWO riggers out to do the job ... $65/hour/man for as long as it takes, you aren't happy and we feel like we're ripping you off ...
It depends on a few things. Just the swag is $6 - 35 depending on the wire diameter. So if you brought the wire and fitting in, the wire was cut to the correct length so it will be correct *after* swagging, you pay the swagging fee. I'm a rigger ... If I have to drive to your boat, haul enough tools out to your boat to climb the mast, remove the stay, fight the pins that haven't been removed in 20 years, rig a temporary stay so I don't die and your mast stays up, take stay back to the shop, lay it out, measure twice, cut once, swag on the fitting, load it all back up, drive back to your boat ... oh, and you are too busy to meet me at the boat to help? ... well that means we send TWO riggers out to do the job ... $65/hour/man for as long as it takes, you aren't happy and we feel like we're ripping you off ...
More details on labor question
Thanks for the response. I intentionally left out the details to see what response I would get. Here is the deal. This happened when my boat was launched. I made a trip to the boat the night after it was launched to gear it up for the trip to my mooring. Upon arrival at the boat I found the backstay was REALLY lose with a bottomed out turnbuckle. Its on Oday Mariner so the backstay doesn't carry much tension (swept spreaders), but I want to have control over mast bend (image that?). To me this should have been noticed when the mast went up (I DID pay alot of money for that service), "Hey Chris your backstay is really loose and the turnbuckle is bottomed out. Just thought I'd let you know". So I had to sit around and wait for the job to get done before shoving off. The boat was right under the crane so 10 minutes in a bosun chair to get the backstay down (I was there I watched it happen) + 10 minutes to get it back up + time for "reswagging" (which I admit I don't know what that means) yieled me a $90 charge for 1.5 hours worth of labor. At first take that seems high to me. No travel, to extra gear, second person required to run the crane. So there is 40 minutes in man hours to get it up/down, but I feel should be included in what I already paid for stepping/unstepping. What's I'm questioning is how much labor was done to the backstay itself. $90 seems too high to me. I just want to do some homework with some people in the know, before I make an undo accusation of unfairness. FYI the current boat builder told me $35 for backstay work only. Thanks all!
Thanks for the response. I intentionally left out the details to see what response I would get. Here is the deal. This happened when my boat was launched. I made a trip to the boat the night after it was launched to gear it up for the trip to my mooring. Upon arrival at the boat I found the backstay was REALLY lose with a bottomed out turnbuckle. Its on Oday Mariner so the backstay doesn't carry much tension (swept spreaders), but I want to have control over mast bend (image that?). To me this should have been noticed when the mast went up (I DID pay alot of money for that service), "Hey Chris your backstay is really loose and the turnbuckle is bottomed out. Just thought I'd let you know". So I had to sit around and wait for the job to get done before shoving off. The boat was right under the crane so 10 minutes in a bosun chair to get the backstay down (I was there I watched it happen) + 10 minutes to get it back up + time for "reswagging" (which I admit I don't know what that means) yieled me a $90 charge for 1.5 hours worth of labor. At first take that seems high to me. No travel, to extra gear, second person required to run the crane. So there is 40 minutes in man hours to get it up/down, but I feel should be included in what I already paid for stepping/unstepping. What's I'm questioning is how much labor was done to the backstay itself. $90 seems too high to me. I just want to do some homework with some people in the know, before I make an undo accusation of unfairness. FYI the current boat builder told me $35 for backstay work only. Thanks all!
Yard Charges
Save your breath. Live and learn. See what, if any, service you get in the future if you accuse them of overcharging. I think the price is fair. The yard is not responsible for the condition of your rigging when they step the mast. They did the best they could with what you gave them. True, it would have been nice to get some feedback, assuming they had a contact number for you and a request from you that they call if anything was out of the ordinary. You don't say if $90 included the parts? My local yard charges $75/manhour plus every nut and washer, which is what I would want if I were doing the work. Ever try running a business? Besides that, it's a mariner. What were you doing paying someone to step the mast?
Save your breath. Live and learn. See what, if any, service you get in the future if you accuse them of overcharging. I think the price is fair. The yard is not responsible for the condition of your rigging when they step the mast. They did the best they could with what you gave them. True, it would have been nice to get some feedback, assuming they had a contact number for you and a request from you that they call if anything was out of the ordinary. You don't say if $90 included the parts? My local yard charges $75/manhour plus every nut and washer, which is what I would want if I were doing the work. Ever try running a business? Besides that, it's a mariner. What were you doing paying someone to step the mast?
Ed has good points
Chris I have a Rhodes 19 basicly the same boat....I dont think they over charged you. Most companies charge at least $90 per hour to do anything....just look what a plumber charges to come to your house!! Nothing is cheap...I step my own mast as my wife foots it...If they reswagged your rigging that is a plus... I also have a 46' morgan.and anytime I ask my yard to do ANYTHING on my boat I EXPECT at least a few hundred as a bill my way. thats why I Do it myself on the simple things. Welcome to boat ownership!
Chris I have a Rhodes 19 basicly the same boat....I dont think they over charged you. Most companies charge at least $90 per hour to do anything....just look what a plumber charges to come to your house!! Nothing is cheap...I step my own mast as my wife foots it...If they reswagged your rigging that is a plus... I also have a 46' morgan.and anytime I ask my yard to do ANYTHING on my boat I EXPECT at least a few hundred as a bill my way. thats why I Do it myself on the simple things. Welcome to boat ownership!
Have we missed the point?
why all of a sudden was the back stay too long? If you had noticed it before the rig went back in you probably could have had a new one made up for less than the repair. I think I remember on my Rhodes 19 that the old stays seem to strech after 10 years or so ... and there was a little bit we could do by adjusting the forestay without screwing up the performance too badly. If it was like mine the oak keel it was resting on started to get a little soft on the surface as well ... I had one time thought about a 1/2 in. nylon shim under that piece that the mast locks/steps on. vic "seven"
why all of a sudden was the back stay too long? If you had noticed it before the rig went back in you probably could have had a new one made up for less than the repair. I think I remember on my Rhodes 19 that the old stays seem to strech after 10 years or so ... and there was a little bit we could do by adjusting the forestay without screwing up the performance too badly. If it was like mine the oak keel it was resting on started to get a little soft on the surface as well ... I had one time thought about a 1/2 in. nylon shim under that piece that the mast locks/steps on. vic "seven"
What I'm wondering
is why couldn't they (or you) replace the fitting at the BOTTOM of the backstay - then nothing at the masthead would have to be taken loose. Just tie the main halyard to a stern cleat so the mast will stay up, loosen the backstay, and do what's necessary. One question: was it loose when you pulled it last?
is why couldn't they (or you) replace the fitting at the BOTTOM of the backstay - then nothing at the masthead would have to be taken loose. Just tie the main halyard to a stern cleat so the mast will stay up, loosen the backstay, and do what's necessary. One question: was it loose when you pulled it last?
Growing Backstays
can be a real problem on modern boats. I think it has something to do with the "Pox Pixie".
Seriously, you realy want to find out the cause behind the "lengthened" backstay. Obviously, something aboard has changed, and I'd be very uncomfortable not knowing what. As to the $90 charge. It seems reasonable to me, if you should be charged at all (back to why work required). Regards, Gord
can be a real problem on modern boats. I think it has something to do with the "Pox Pixie".
Seriously, you realy want to find out the cause behind the "lengthened" backstay. Obviously, something aboard has changed, and I'd be very uncomfortable not knowing what. As to the $90 charge. It seems reasonable to me, if you should be charged at all (back to why work required). Regards, GordGrowing Backstays
can be a real problem on modern boats. I think it has something to do with the "Pox Pixie". Seriously, you realy want to find out the cause behind the "lengthened" backstay. Obviously, something aboard has changed, and I'd be very uncomfortable not knowing what. As to the $90 charge. It seems reasonable to me, if you should be charged at all (back to why work required). Regards, Gord
can be a real problem on modern boats. I think it has something to do with the "Pox Pixie".
Seriously, you realy want to find out the cause behind the "lengthened" backstay. Obviously, something aboard has changed, and I'd be very uncomfortable not knowing what. As to the $90 charge. It seems reasonable to me, if you should be charged at all (back to why work required). Regards, Gordmast step??
Chris my Rhodes steps through the deck and nests into a aluminum mast step mounted on the cabin sole.....If the mast is not sitting correctly in that step IE if the mast base were farther forward...this would cause slack in the aft stay.
Chris my Rhodes steps through the deck and nests into a aluminum mast step mounted on the cabin sole.....If the mast is not sitting correctly in that step IE if the mast base were farther forward...this would cause slack in the aft stay.
Thanks
Thanks all, it seems like the general consensus it that $90 is a fair charge for the work done, which in the end in the info that I wanted to know. For those who need some justification as to why I had a yard stepping the mast for a Mariner its a long story that summerizes with 1) I don't own a trailer (yet) 2) the boat was in the yard to have some other work done that I didn't feel comfortable doing myself 3) the yard told me I couldn't step the mast myself because of "insurance concerns" 4)after the almost complete rebuild I did on the boat myself (my first real venture into the sailing world) I wanted some prefessional eyes to take a look at it. I think this backstay problem is just the straw that broke the camels back. I have been a small fish in a big pond for the last 2 winters. IE everyone else in the yard has priority over me. Because I'm not some 50 year old millionaire with a 40 footer means I don't spend as much money as everyone and as a result I get less attention. I understand why this is, I would do the same if I ran a business, that doesn't mean I have to LIKE it. For those you wonder why younger people don't get involved in sailing (I'm 25) reread the above paragraph, in my experience its hit or miss whether you get good service. Some people bend over backwards to help you (cheers to them), some dismiss you immediately. If the sailing world wants to expand to the next generation, it would be nice to see that practice curtailed. Hopefully I can pull the means together to get a trailer before haulout, unstep the mast myself, find a ramp to get her out, and avoid dealing with the yard altogether. Thanks all, appreciate the feedback and discussion. Chris S/V B
Thanks all, it seems like the general consensus it that $90 is a fair charge for the work done, which in the end in the info that I wanted to know. For those who need some justification as to why I had a yard stepping the mast for a Mariner its a long story that summerizes with 1) I don't own a trailer (yet) 2) the boat was in the yard to have some other work done that I didn't feel comfortable doing myself 3) the yard told me I couldn't step the mast myself because of "insurance concerns" 4)after the almost complete rebuild I did on the boat myself (my first real venture into the sailing world) I wanted some prefessional eyes to take a look at it. I think this backstay problem is just the straw that broke the camels back. I have been a small fish in a big pond for the last 2 winters. IE everyone else in the yard has priority over me. Because I'm not some 50 year old millionaire with a 40 footer means I don't spend as much money as everyone and as a result I get less attention. I understand why this is, I would do the same if I ran a business, that doesn't mean I have to LIKE it. For those you wonder why younger people don't get involved in sailing (I'm 25) reread the above paragraph, in my experience its hit or miss whether you get good service. Some people bend over backwards to help you (cheers to them), some dismiss you immediately. If the sailing world wants to expand to the next generation, it would be nice to see that practice curtailed. Hopefully I can pull the means together to get a trailer before haulout, unstep the mast myself, find a ramp to get her out, and avoid dealing with the yard altogether. Thanks all, appreciate the feedback and discussion. Chris S/V B
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