Knock off that racket!

[Project_Mayhem]

It's that time of the year for mast maintenance. While I have it down I plan on running new cabling. I think it'd be nice to reduce the amount of internal mast slap caused by the wiring while making it easier to run new cabling in the future. Here's a few ideas I had. Please let me know if any of them are worthwhile:

• PVC pipe with Y fittings to accommodate feeding cabling from outside the mast
• Applying zip ties over electrical tape (to prevent spinning and sliding) on the PVC pipe to add some cushion
• Riveting the PVC to the mast every three feet or so
• Pool noodles over PVC - This seems like it would get hung up a lot as it's fed into the mast

I'm looking for some feedback from those who've done this before. All of the above seam feasible but some advise from those more experienced than me would definitely help guide me in the right direction. Mast is 30ft long with the majority of the protruding screws at the base. 1/2"-1" PVC is appropriate for this project. I have 1/2" on hand

 

[Davidasailor26]

Zip ties with the tails left long is one trick. That would minimize weight aloft better than PVC. I haven’t tried it myself so I don’t know if it’s as effective.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

I dont like tie wraps because they can make it enormously more difficult when the inevitable happens and a cable needs to be removed.
ten feet of schedule 40 one inch diameter PVC pipe weighs 3 pounds - for a short mast, it seems to me like a trivial consideration

 

[Project_Mayhem]

I dont like tie wraps because they can make it enormously more difficult when the inevitable happens and a cable needs to be removed.
ten feet of schedule 40 one inch diameter PVC pipe weighs 3 pounds - for a short mast, it seems to me like a trivial consideration

Im not concerned about weight. I was thinking of zip ties over pvc. If electrical tape is applied to the PVC before the zip tie it should prevent the zip tie from moving. Based on my experience running cabling in buildings I'd imagine the zip tie tails would be easier to deal with than a foam pool noodle. I have a set of fiberglass sticks for fishing cable

 

[dlochner]

Some masts have conduits already installed. Or look for a track inside the mast, these are for slides to which the wire bundle is attached.

Pool noodles or pipe insulation works.

Do you have any internal halyards? If so, it is important to make certain the cables do not interfere with the halyards and the halyards are not twisted.

Running cables with the mast down is really simple, especially if you have an electrician's fish tape that is long enough. A 50' tape is not long enough for a 53' mast.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

Some masts have conduits already installed. Or look for a track inside the mast, these are for slides to which the wire bundle is attached.

Pool noodles or pipe insulation works.

Do you have any internal halyards? If so, it is important to make certain the cables do not interfere with the halyards and the halyards are not twisted.

Running cables with the mast down is really simple, especially if you have an electrician's fish tape that is long enough. A 50' tape is not long enough for a 53' mast.

No internal halyards, track or conduit. There is a fair amount of screws and bolts holding hardware on from the outside which makes me hesitant to use noodles. It looks like the mast base isn't seized on which should make things easier. Mast head is already off.

Will zip ties on the PVC work? Is the PVC even worth the extra effort for this small mast?

 

[dlochner]

How many cables will you be running?

A PVC conduit would work. It only needs to be attached at the top and bottom of the mast and maybe in the middle. It should also be shorter than the mast.

 

[jssailem]

On 40’ Masts thin wall PVC is typically used. Attached to the forward side of the mast in 2 lengths . No need to have Y fittings. Terminate the PVC above and below the mid section (spreaders). To permit the cables to provide power in the middle of the run. 3 small rivets are typically all that is necessary to hold the PVC to the mast.

Use a cable lock to hold the weight of the cable and a strain relief loop at the middle and top of the mast.

My experience is that the zip ties get in the way of running halyards or replacing the cables, and while the noodles work for a period of time they breakdown and become a plug mush for a future owner. They will come up with imaginary words that refer to the previous owner’s skills.

At the mast base have enough cable to create a drip loop. Water will run down the cable. Let it drop off the cable and not find its way into your boat or you deck core.

 

[thinwater]

Ytube conduit install video. Seems like a good one. Watching it made me think of a few variations.
installing conduit

 

[rgranger]

What about the gray wire conduit pipe they sell it in electric section at Lowe’s. It’s a lot less weight than PVC and it’s also less expensive

 

[Project_Mayhem]

Is it necessary to sand/camfer the edges of cut PVC to prevent it from cutting through insulation?
Does anyone know of a grommet for the edges of the mast that holds up to UV? The rubber ones don't seem to last long... at least not the ones I've tried. I'd be interested in trying a recommended brand

How many cables will you be running?

A PVC conduit would work. It only needs to be attached at the top and bottom of the mast and maybe in the middle. It should also be shorter than the mast.

I'm only re-wiring the steaming and masthead lights for now. I'll probably reroute or replace the other two next year. That's great to hear that only a small handful of rivets are needed. I believe it was The Rigging Company that recommended one every three feet. Now that I know I don't have to put so many holes in the mast I'm sold. PVC it is!

On 40’ Masts thin wall PVC is typically used. Attached to the forward side of the mast in 2 lengths . No need to have Y fittings. Terminate the PVC above and below the mid section (spreaders). To permit the cables to provide power in the middle of the run. 3 small rivets are typically all that is necessary to hold the PVC to the mast.

Thin wall sounds like a good idea. Splitting the conduit run in half with a gap sounds like it'd be prone to getting hung up when cables are ran and very difficult to run cabling to/from the spreaders. It's usually easier to start the cabling at the smallest end than to try to pull it through at the end. I suppose if the hole in the mast is big enough you could feed a fish tape/rod at an angle into the lower PVC through the gap

Use a cable lock to hold the weight of the cable and a strain relief loop at the middle and top of the mast.

My experience is that the zip ties get in the way of running halyards or replacing the cables, and while the noodles work for a period of time they breakdown and become a plug mush for a future owner. They will come up with imaginary words that refer to the previous owner’s skills.

Noted on the lock. Service loops/strain reliefs are used whenever possible

At the mast base have enough cable to create a drip loop. Water will run down the cable. Let it drop off the cable and not find its way into your boat or you deck core.

Great idea!

What about the gray wire conduit pipe they sell it in electric section at Lowe’s. It’s a lot less weight than PVC and it’s also less expensive

I know I've bought schedule 40 gray conduit in the past. I'll see if they have any schedule 80. Dull gray always looks better than yellowed white

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

I know I've bought schedule 40 gray conduit in the past. I'll see if they have any schedule 80. Dull gray always looks better than yellowed white

for clarity, schedule 40 is lighter and less thick wall than does 80. You don’t need thick walled pipe for this and as it’s inside the mast, color seems unimportant.

 

[jssailem]

Inside the mast. Should be no staining. UV protected safe space. With the mast down run the lines should be easy. It may be just me work backwards, but I’d run wire up the mast past the hole mid mast. Reach it with a hook and fish the wire/wires out. Then run them where needed mid mast or through the spreader. Same trick with the spreader kit hook the wire. They are small wires.

Not sure you need worry about the edges of the PVC. You could use electrical tape on the ends.

A wrap of amalgamating tape on the wire can work to secure the wire and plug the hole as it come through the plastic hole into a light fixture. You can use screw down clamps to hold the wire in place in the fixture.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

I love the PVC idea but a little unclear on how it's possible to install a rivet every 8-10ft or so. When riveting every three feet or so the PVC will stay in place (assuming you're working your way from one end to the other). When the next closes rivet is 8' away, the PVC will droop down or it will move away as soon as the drill bit touches it. How does one keep it in place to drill a hole in it?

for clarity, schedule 40 is lighter and less thick wall than does 80. You don’t need thick walled pipe for this and as it’s inside the mast, color seems unimportant.

Schedule 80 has a thinner wall than 40. 40 is your run of the mill pipe size. Color is just a preference, kinda like a clean car engine

Inside the mast. Should be no staining. UV protected safe space. With the mast down run the lines should be easy. It may be just me work backwards, but I’d run wire up the mast past the hole mid mast. Reach it with a hook and fish the wire/wires out. Then run them where needed mid mast or through the spreader. Same trick with the spreader kit hook the wire. They are small wires.

Not sure you need worry about the edges of the PVC. You could use electrical tape on the ends.

A wrap of amalgamating tape on the wire can work to secure the wire and plug the hole as it come through the plastic hole into a light fixture. You can use screw down clamps to hold the wire in place in the fixture.

Speaking from experience, it's much easier to feed it through a small hole first rather than trying to fish it out and pull it through a small hole at the end. The holes for wiring on my mast are 1/4-3/8". I'll enlarge them if needed but I'll definitely try to work with what's there first.
Electrical tape will make a gooey mess for quite a few years until it finally dries out. Sometimes it comes off of the surface you put it on, especially when heat is involved.
I do plan on using self amalgamating tape on the exposed wiring outside the mast to protect against UV. That plastic loom stuff always seems to fail in the sun

Below is what was installed in the holes of my mast to protect the wires from chafing. Can anyone recommend a brand that's held up in the sun?

 

[dlochner]

I love the PVC idea but a little unclear on how it's possible to install a rivet every 8-10ft or so. When riveting every three feet or so the PVC will stay in place (assuming you're working your way from one end to the other). When the next closes rivet is 8' away, the PVC will droop down or it will move away as soon as the drill bit touches it. How does one keep it in place to drill a hole in it?

Turn the mast over so the PVC is laying on the bottom of the mast.

 

[JBP-PA]

A previous owner of my boat used pool noodles. They were horrible to remove. Despite being inside the mast they still rotted leaving particles of noodle everywhere. Trying to pull them out of the mast, they would hang up and shred. I was only able to remove them bit by bit with a long hook on a stick combined with rinsing the mast with a hose.

I replaced it with zip ties on spilt loom. Very light and easy compared to pvc.

 

[LloydB]

You can hang 29'10" of 3/4"conduit with a single pop rivet no problem so supporting the bottom half of that conduit with another pop rivet just gives double duty. Your mast will be laying horizontally and more than likely over 2 1/2 inches in diameter so you should be able to drill from outside the mast and through the conduit while holding the conduit down from outside the end of the mast at each end. Should you need to check the strength of your efforts you need simply to roll the mast 180 degrees so that the conduit can hang from the newly installed rivets to ensure that your conduit will not switch side to side as you jibe. I think a middle rivet probably would be unnecessary but if wanted you should be able to install one after you have put the top and bottom rivets in while the conduit is still resting on the inside of the mast. The technique drilling into the conduit blind is a bit different if you cannot see it so you would want to use significantly smaller drill bit to get through only the wall of the mast to verify the position of the conduit and creating a pilot hole. What's the pilot hole and the conduit verified with a nice sharp drill bit then you can smoothly drill out for the pop rivet also with a sharp drill bit. Those grommets look OK to me but new ones would be better if you buy them from the same place that you get your Scotch 88. Don't tie your wires together in the conduit and pull an extra pair so you don't have to mess with it if you want to add something later.

 

[FastOlson]

See reply #14 in this thread. mast conduit - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
We did this exact procedure a couple years ago when replacing the OEM pvc tubing in our spar. Works like a charm, as the saying goes. All you see now are little pairs of pop rivets going up the spar, about 3 feet apart.
I also replaced the factory single pvc tube with a two-tube setup. One goes to the point for the anchor/steaming light and the other carries cabling to the mast head for (new) tricolor, and wind transducer.
No more sound of a semi-loose piece of pvc thumping back n forth, at anchor, either!

 

[Project_Mayhem]

Well I decided to throw meticulous planning into the wind and just go for it. My day started with a trip to Home Depot who had neither the Y fittings nor the sched 80 in the correct sizes. I was really tempted to just use some foam pipe insulation instead of PVC. I ended up going with 1" PVC.
My first task upon arriving at the yard was to remove the mast base for easy access. I had stopped earlier this week when the screws were stuck and on the verge of stripping. I got two out with a hammer screwdriver and my new three speed Dewalt. I have so much more control with a decent drill! Sadly the other two screws snapped. An hour later I had the base off and holes drilled out for rivets when I reinstall it. I also found a couple of small tracks in the bottom of the mast. Surprisingly the tracks do not extend all the way to the top. This mast is made by Dwyer.
I assembled the three pipes with couplings and simply taped them at the fittings since everything will be riveted in place. I taped the PVC to the mast and marked the length as well as a cut out for the steaming light. An Oscillating tool made quick work of the 1ft cut out. I'd have to say this is one of the most amazing tools I've ever owned.
I started riveting at the top of the mast. First one went fine. The second one, three feet away, somehow ended up off to the side. It took a good 5-10 minutes to get a hole in the PVC. Next came the arduous task of getting the PVC pulled over enough to get the rivet in there. I only had 1/2" long ones with me but it definitely came in handy. After pushing the center "wire" down a bit It gave it just enough length to reach the hole in the PVC, pull it over and secure everything in place. With that being said, I should really check to make sure the PVC isn't hung up on something such as a bolt, screw or existing cables.

Thanks for the link @FastOlson! It has some great insight and ideas. If I was a rigger I'd be looking at extending the hose of an air wedge. I think if I run into any issues holding the PVC still I'll tape some steel pipe to some fish sticks/rods for pulling cables. Pics to come soon as I plan on going back tomorrow

 

[Project_Mayhem]

I had another very frustrating day at the yard. There's now a couple sections of fiberglass wire fish rods stuck in the mast as one of the ends came off. There's too much going on in that mast to do the PVC. When I have time to rewire the VHF and wind instruments (both will require re-terminating) I'll pull everything out for another attempt.
I ended up using the zip tie method for the new wiring that I pulled. It wasn't difficult to pull. In two days of frustration I got three rivets in the PVC. In two hours I ran new masthead cabling, crimped and covered all exposed wiring with heatshrink, installed a new steaming light, zip tied everything to keep the cables from pulling on the crimped connections, spliced a 16/4 wire for the mast base connector and tested everything with a small battery. Now time to order a grommet so I can wrap this project up for the season

PS - I found silicone grommets which I assume are more UV resistant?