Okay folks, let's talk about the down control line for the rudder. We have a 1998 H260 that originally came with cleat on the tiller bracket to tie down the rudder (we have wheel steering). Initially, we had a lot of problems with very heavy helm and found that this was due to the rudder rotating back while sailing. The line was very difficult to cleat down and also the tiller bracket would tilt up. I have partially solved the problem by installing a Spinlock PX Powercleat on the tiller bracket for cleating the down line. Also, we have no wing nut/handle arrangement at the rudder pivot to adjust tension.. My question is: What is the design function of this system? (Cleat and pivoting tiller bracket or Rudder pivot wingnut?) What is the prefered method to lock the rudder down and, more importantly, what is designed to give when you hit something? ( I do know what breaks when you hit something at 6 knts!) We sail mostly in the shallow NC coast waters, and do touch bottom on occasion...Oh, and yes, I do have a good depth sounder.. Stephen Dawes H260 Tender Morsel
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John Drost Jr.
I USE A SPRING ON MY RUDDER
I PUT A SPRING ON THE RUDDER OF MY H-20. IT WORKES WELL WHEN DOCKING IN SHALLOW WATER, IT WILL KICK UP OVER A LOG OR ROCK THEN WILL GO BACK DOWN.
I PUT A SPRING ON THE RUDDER OF MY H-20. IT WORKES WELL WHEN DOCKING IN SHALLOW WATER, IT WILL KICK UP OVER A LOG OR ROCK THEN WILL GO BACK DOWN.
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Stephen Dawes
Looked at springs...
I looked at instaling a spring as part of the down control line, but there was just not enough room (for extension). The down line attaches to the rudder very close to the pivot, yielding no mechanical advantage. In fact, for every lb of drag force on the rudder, you have to apply 4-5 lbs on the down control line.. Stephen dawes
I looked at instaling a spring as part of the down control line, but there was just not enough room (for extension). The down line attaches to the rudder very close to the pivot, yielding no mechanical advantage. In fact, for every lb of drag force on the rudder, you have to apply 4-5 lbs on the down control line.. Stephen dawes
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Tom
Wimg nut
You're right. When the rudder rotates up even a little the helm turns REAL heavy! Can you add a wing nut to the rudder pivot like on a 26? Tom
You're right. When the rudder rotates up even a little the helm turns REAL heavy! Can you add a wing nut to the rudder pivot like on a 26? Tom
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peter iversen
rudder down haul
i discussed this problem with hunter and they sent me a sheet describing adding a block to the downhaul giving a 2:1 advantage. call hunter service and they will fax the same to you. the cleat on the tiller gives quick release if tied properly. i have not had your problem of the tiller raising up unless i was dragging on the bottom.
i discussed this problem with hunter and they sent me a sheet describing adding a block to the downhaul giving a 2:1 advantage. call hunter service and they will fax the same to you. the cleat on the tiller gives quick release if tied properly. i have not had your problem of the tiller raising up unless i was dragging on the bottom.
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Rick webb
Save them time, Post it here
Can we get it posted here and save the Hunter folks the time it takes to answer the phones and send the fax?
Can we get it posted here and save the Hunter folks the time it takes to answer the phones and send the fax?
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Rick webb
Forgot to ask
What is the proper way to tie it off maybe we can get a diagram posted on this wonderful site as well
What is the proper way to tie it off maybe we can get a diagram posted on this wonderful site as well
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Dave Condon
Rudder tie down
Crazy Dave is going to put his two cents in on this one. Steve, you need to see if there is a block inside the rudder post as I suggested to Hunter which helps to pull the rudder down easier. Please let me know if you have one. I do not like to tie the rudder in the down position with the line for fear of running aground. I have seen a small jam cleat that is a break way in a small version on the new small Hunter boats but wonder if they are available in the larger ones. The best though is a handle welded on a nut that holds the rudder on which is the best solution versus using the line. You could on one side using a dremel cut the square hole so the carraiage bolt will not turn. You could also weld onto the ruddeer housing two metal strips so that a regular bolt head will not turn. Steve, if you have any other questins, give me a holler. CraZy Dave gotta go or get chewed by the better half. Happy sailing
Crazy Dave is going to put his two cents in on this one. Steve, you need to see if there is a block inside the rudder post as I suggested to Hunter which helps to pull the rudder down easier. Please let me know if you have one. I do not like to tie the rudder in the down position with the line for fear of running aground. I have seen a small jam cleat that is a break way in a small version on the new small Hunter boats but wonder if they are available in the larger ones. The best though is a handle welded on a nut that holds the rudder on which is the best solution versus using the line. You could on one side using a dremel cut the square hole so the carraiage bolt will not turn. You could also weld onto the ruddeer housing two metal strips so that a regular bolt head will not turn. Steve, if you have any other questins, give me a holler. CraZy Dave gotta go or get chewed by the better half. Happy sailing
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mike43067
Hmmmmmmmmmm
Well I just have an old H23 and have heard so much discussion of problems with this setup that, frankly, I'm surprised that Hunter is still using this system on their new boats. Mine kicked up a lot this summer cause our lake was low and I was draggin on the bottom a lot. I wouldn't have wanted it tied off. I've heard of the block actually breaking when it's tied tight. I'm goin the route of the big wing nuts to tighten at the pivot and leave the downhaul line loose. I put "all thread" through the pivot hole and then put "handle nuts" on both sides.You can ask for them at a hardware store .........you don't need to weld handles on nuts! Although I am anxious to see what Hunter sent about the multiple block system.
Well I just have an old H23 and have heard so much discussion of problems with this setup that, frankly, I'm surprised that Hunter is still using this system on their new boats. Mine kicked up a lot this summer cause our lake was low and I was draggin on the bottom a lot. I wouldn't have wanted it tied off. I've heard of the block actually breaking when it's tied tight. I'm goin the route of the big wing nuts to tighten at the pivot and leave the downhaul line loose. I put "all thread" through the pivot hole and then put "handle nuts" on both sides.You can ask for them at a hardware store .........you don't need to weld handles on nuts! Although I am anxious to see what Hunter sent about the multiple block system.
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Mike Pajewski
I tie mine off unless I plan on going shallow
When we were on the Mississippi or Red Rock Lake, I always left the outhaul loose, but since moving to Wisconsin, the depth in our marina is enough for a Santa Cruz 70 to clear the harbor, so I often take a turn on the ruddder outhaul to keep the rudder from rotating aft. I have the big wingnut and rubber sheets between the cheek blocks. Still, the rudder rotates aft if I get a good bit of speed up. And I can't use the outhall to raise the rudder either. Usually I have to step out on the ladder and lift it up. Try that in Lake Superior or Lake Michigan in October (November this year. Brrrrr.) When we go near shallow water I just reach down and undo the outhaul. What do you guys think about putting the wingnut on the hinge pin also. Mike Pajewski SV Loon
When we were on the Mississippi or Red Rock Lake, I always left the outhaul loose, but since moving to Wisconsin, the depth in our marina is enough for a Santa Cruz 70 to clear the harbor, so I often take a turn on the ruddder outhaul to keep the rudder from rotating aft. I have the big wingnut and rubber sheets between the cheek blocks. Still, the rudder rotates aft if I get a good bit of speed up. And I can't use the outhall to raise the rudder either. Usually I have to step out on the ladder and lift it up. Try that in Lake Superior or Lake Michigan in October (November this year. Brrrrr.) When we go near shallow water I just reach down and undo the outhaul. What do you guys think about putting the wingnut on the hinge pin also. Mike Pajewski SV Loon
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Brian Kile
kickup cleat
We've beat this one around alot. My 240 came with the 2:1 system and a std cleat on top of the tiller near the hinge - no wing nuts. Personally if I had wing nuts, i'd be looking to redesign anyway as it seems no fun to me to have to stoop around on the transom to set the rudder every time. I say this coz you have to tighten the nut alot to keep the rudder from riding out at speed and this tension will keep you from setting it from cockpit, even with the 2:1, so its a constant loosen/tighten wingnut exercise. The 240 rudder is massive, so I think a 3:1 is needed. Replace the std cleat with a kickup clam cleat, keep the pivot nuts 'loose', no springs or bungee in the system, safety measure in place in case bottom out, can easily reset from cockpit -problem solved. Brian 'What the Heel'
We've beat this one around alot. My 240 came with the 2:1 system and a std cleat on top of the tiller near the hinge - no wing nuts. Personally if I had wing nuts, i'd be looking to redesign anyway as it seems no fun to me to have to stoop around on the transom to set the rudder every time. I say this coz you have to tighten the nut alot to keep the rudder from riding out at speed and this tension will keep you from setting it from cockpit, even with the 2:1, so its a constant loosen/tighten wingnut exercise. The 240 rudder is massive, so I think a 3:1 is needed. Replace the std cleat with a kickup clam cleat, keep the pivot nuts 'loose', no springs or bungee in the system, safety measure in place in case bottom out, can easily reset from cockpit -problem solved. Brian 'What the Heel'
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Tom
Kickup Cleat??
What is a "kickup cleat"? I've never heard of such a thing, and how does it work? regards....
What is a "kickup cleat"? I've never heard of such a thing, and how does it work? regards....
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Brian Kile
Kickup cleats visited
Hi Steve, there are several basic designs, my first experience with them was on a beach cat that had aluminum tubes for 'tiller bars' which controlled the rudder action. Those cleats were 2 part - basically a tubular fiberglass mount that was split so it could be snapped onto the tiller tube - and it had a clam bolted to the top of this fiberglass 'mount'. The split was tapered on the fore side and had a pivot pin on the aft side -- so that with the rudder set and the line cleated and the tension (from bottoming out) became greater than the friction of the springy fiberglass, the split would be pulled of the tube and it would pivot aft on the pin releasing the rudder. There is a similar cleat for non-tubular mounting available in the APS catalog (http://apsltd.com/default.htm). This is the one to get if your 260 has a place to mount it and it matches your control line size. I'm not familiar with the 260 rudder design or intention-not sure what you mean by 'pivoting tiller bracket? But the 240 design is either hard cleat and the only thing that pivots up is the whole tiller,,, or tension 'wing nut'. There is one problem with this type of safety release - when it goes, it goes. The rudder will float up all the way (unless you tie a fig 8 stop in the line to keep it from going all the way) and you will have a REAL heavy helm until you reset it, so there is a period of frantic movements til its restored. This is where the other designs shine: with a spring safety mechanism, it will spring back in place once the unwanted object clears. With a tension safety mechanism (wingnut) the rudder will displace itself enuf to clear and then u reset it manually when the coast is clear. I threw out the tension option for reasons already mentioned. I did spend some considerable time trying to work a spring or bungee mech, as this is the ultimate in hands, and worry, free. The issue here lies in finding the proper SS spring with a constant thats not to weak or stiff so that it will give only if met with a foreign object and will still give enuf to clear it. Too weak a constant will allow the rudder to start to drift back at speed(I found bungees had this problem). Decided this was too complex to rig, so I settled for the kickup cleat. Hope this gets your gears turnin! Brian
Hi Steve, there are several basic designs, my first experience with them was on a beach cat that had aluminum tubes for 'tiller bars' which controlled the rudder action. Those cleats were 2 part - basically a tubular fiberglass mount that was split so it could be snapped onto the tiller tube - and it had a clam bolted to the top of this fiberglass 'mount'. The split was tapered on the fore side and had a pivot pin on the aft side -- so that with the rudder set and the line cleated and the tension (from bottoming out) became greater than the friction of the springy fiberglass, the split would be pulled of the tube and it would pivot aft on the pin releasing the rudder. There is a similar cleat for non-tubular mounting available in the APS catalog (http://apsltd.com/default.htm). This is the one to get if your 260 has a place to mount it and it matches your control line size. I'm not familiar with the 260 rudder design or intention-not sure what you mean by 'pivoting tiller bracket? But the 240 design is either hard cleat and the only thing that pivots up is the whole tiller,,, or tension 'wing nut'. There is one problem with this type of safety release - when it goes, it goes. The rudder will float up all the way (unless you tie a fig 8 stop in the line to keep it from going all the way) and you will have a REAL heavy helm until you reset it, so there is a period of frantic movements til its restored. This is where the other designs shine: with a spring safety mechanism, it will spring back in place once the unwanted object clears. With a tension safety mechanism (wingnut) the rudder will displace itself enuf to clear and then u reset it manually when the coast is clear. I threw out the tension option for reasons already mentioned. I did spend some considerable time trying to work a spring or bungee mech, as this is the ultimate in hands, and worry, free. The issue here lies in finding the proper SS spring with a constant thats not to weak or stiff so that it will give only if met with a foreign object and will still give enuf to clear it. Too weak a constant will allow the rudder to start to drift back at speed(I found bungees had this problem). Decided this was too complex to rig, so I settled for the kickup cleat. Hope this gets your gears turnin! Brian
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mike43067
spring idea
I think I'll check into the kickup cleats. I've tried many springs and still havn't figured out a strong enough spring to return that heavy rudder to position. If anyone's done it I'd love to see how.
I think I'll check into the kickup cleats. I've tried many springs and still havn't figured out a strong enough spring to return that heavy rudder to position. If anyone's done it I'd love to see how.
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Rick webb
I think I prefer the stock system
I have considered altering the mechanism on my rudder but I think I like keeping it as much in the water after I scrape bottom than or it to come up altogether. Our bottoms around here are mostly mud or sand and we scrape some on most every outing. The change I would like to make is to be able to get the rudder up without hanging off the back of the boat with a boat hook.
I have considered altering the mechanism on my rudder but I think I like keeping it as much in the water after I scrape bottom than or it to come up altogether. Our bottoms around here are mostly mud or sand and we scrape some on most every outing. The change I would like to make is to be able to get the rudder up without hanging off the back of the boat with a boat hook.
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Bill Welsch
Kick up clam cleat??
The fact that there is so much email on this subject of the 240/260 rudder design should be a hint to Hunter that IT DOESNT WORK! So whats a "kickup clam cleat" and where can I find one? Neither west marine nor Boat US list such a creature in their catalogues or web sites. Thanks Bill Welsch S/V Renewal (H240)
The fact that there is so much email on this subject of the 240/260 rudder design should be a hint to Hunter that IT DOESNT WORK! So whats a "kickup clam cleat" and where can I find one? Neither west marine nor Boat US list such a creature in their catalogues or web sites. Thanks Bill Welsch S/V Renewal (H240)
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Jeff Peltier
over the top
I have a 98 260 with wheel steering. I have a block in the post for 2-1 ratio. I bring the line over the top rail and back down to a (6" est) spring. The 1/2 rap on the rail allows a lighter spring. A person could also go 1 1/2 raps. Hope this helps. We have plenty of shallow water and it works well for me. Jeff Peltier
I have a 98 260 with wheel steering. I have a block in the post for 2-1 ratio. I bring the line over the top rail and back down to a (6" est) spring. The 1/2 rap on the rail allows a lighter spring. A person could also go 1 1/2 raps. Hope this helps. We have plenty of shallow water and it works well for me. Jeff Peltier
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