If Peary's men died on the south pole, they must have been really, really lost.
Keeping Warm under Foulies
- Thread starter Kings Gambit
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All great answers. The best simple article I've found is this classic from REI (must be 20 years old), that they've reprinted on their web site ... http://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/layering-basics.html -- Ignore their ads, the concepts are great. One of the most overlooked articles in all this advice is the classic knit watch cap. You lose an incredible amount of heat through your head. They are cheap and stuff well around fragile things in lockers -- keep a half-dozen for guests. Cotton ball caps are good for keeping rain or sun out of your eyes, but don't insulate at all.
Bingo! As an ice climber I know you know this stuff.!
I don't need to investigate because it's happened to me numerous times...
Wool will eventually dry but at nowhere the speed that Polartec does. For day sailing, under foulies in low activity, it can be fine but for me it is Polartec hands down..
If you really get that cold, I'd be in t-shirt and shorts where you are, a "mid-weight" or "expedition-weight" thermal such as those made from antimicrobial Polartec (polyester) are excellent. If you want to look all trendy, Patagonia charges an arm and a leg for the same stuff and calls it Synchilla®. It is not anything more than a Malden Mills Polartec.
I ski and winter climb in mid-weight with a simple non-insulated Gore-Tex shell/pant over them. In over 20 years I've never needed anything more than my Polartec long johns and a Gore-Tex shell pant.
I can assure you that wool anything, no matter if you call it "Smart", will not dry the way Polartec polyester does. I own tons of "Smart Wool" and it simply does not compare to a Polartec in terms of insulating or speed of drying.
When we do winter climbing trips we are carrying 70-80+ pound packs and sweating up a storm. While setting up camp, with lower activity levels, my fleece will self-dry, while wearing it, even under my Gore-Tex shells. This DOES NOT happen with wool. Every single guy I climb with wears Polartec mid or expedition weight thermals and over the years we've all tried wool, including the "new wool's" that call themselves smart....
No wool anywhere in my pack, except socks (with a VBL liner so they never get wet), when traversing NH's Presidential range in Feb...
Maine, I think the Smart in Smartwool is because it's merino wool. Thinner fibers make merino wool less itchy, so it can be worn next to the skin. I don't think they make any wicking claims, or drying claims.
Apparently, there are also barbs on the wool fibers, so they acid treat them to remove and smooth out the fibers. This prevents shrinking. That's another reason they call it Smartwool. Trying to remember what the rep said last time they visited the store and I was there, probably 10 years or more ago
One thing about the wool, it doesn't stink up as much or as quickly as the synthetic fiber long underwear. Well, wet dog smell is probably better than the acrid stink of polyester worn too long, IMO. The winter campers working at the store all swear they can go for multi day trips with wool, but not with synthetic long underwear. Not me! I have no interest in winter camping. But I'm happy alpine skiing, XC skiing, and snowshoeing!
Apparently, there are also barbs on the wool fibers, so they acid treat them to remove and smooth out the fibers. This prevents shrinking. That's another reason they call it Smartwool. Trying to remember what the rep said last time they visited the store and I was there, probably 10 years or more ago
One thing about the wool, it doesn't stink up as much or as quickly as the synthetic fiber long underwear. Well, wet dog smell is probably better than the acrid stink of polyester worn too long, IMO. The winter campers working at the store all swear they can go for multi day trips with wool, but not with synthetic long underwear. Not me! I have no interest in winter camping. But I'm happy alpine skiing, XC skiing, and snowshoeing!
My philosophy in staying warm is to have the correct amount of insulation for the weather and activity. That right there means that you will need several options available to mix and match. Since activity levels and weather are not constant during a day, your clothing must be quickly adaptable to the changing conditions. I prefer to slightly over-insulate. That means I'm going to get slightly overheated at times. Therefore my clothing needs to have the following attributes: First, a wicking base-layer that helps move water vapor away from my skin. I want the base-layer to have almost no insulative value. Second, an insulation layer that will allow water vapor absorption. Third, an exterior layer that blocks rain and wind, yet ventilates. The exterior layer is the most technically critical because you want to keep the insulation layer dry (that is, you don't want the weather to add water to the insulation), but you do want to ventilate exterior of the insulation layer to get rid of the water that your body is adding. That is a tall order for your exterior layer, so buy wisely.
If my base layer gets overloaded and is saturated, I strip down and start over with a dry base-layer. The discomfort is momentary, and the resulting comfort is worth it. I haven't found any fabric that will stay comfortable and warm when it is saturated.
By the way, if wool actually got warmer when it gets wet, then we would all wear nothing but wool and drench our clothes whenever we get cold.
If my base layer gets overloaded and is saturated, I strip down and start over with a dry base-layer. The discomfort is momentary, and the resulting comfort is worth it. I haven't found any fabric that will stay comfortable and warm when it is saturated.
By the way, if wool actually got warmer when it gets wet, then we would all wear nothing but wool and drench our clothes whenever we get cold.
Yes wet dog smell is better than bad polypro. Wool wins this hands down... The newer Polartec stuff has an anti-microbial that works really well, nothing like the old polypro. Cheap polypro will stink the good stuff holds it off a LOT longer. Sadly there are so many knock-offs it is tough to find one that actually works well unless you stick with Polartec material. Kind of like real Gore-Tex vs. the knock offs that never perform the same.......One thing about the wool, it doesn't stink up as much or as quickly as the synthetic fiber long underwear. Well, wet dog smell is probably better than the acrid stink of polyester worn too long, IMO. The winter campers working at the store all swear they can go for multi day trips with wool, but not with synthetic long underwear. Not me! I have no interest in winter camping. But I'm happy alpine skiing, XC skiing, and snowshoeing!
I remember the early days of bad polypro; it was awful. I didn't know that the bad stuff was still available. I still have my Patagonia Capiline stuff that I bought in the 1990's, and used heavily until the the mid-aughts. Still gets use, in fact, I'm wearing a mid-weight shirt today in my cold office. It doesn't stink at all, even after many days of human-powered mountain travel. I have base layers of the similar vintage from The North Face, Mountain Hardware, and Marmot. All are going strong and odor-free.
I did find that when I was doing the multiday, heavy exertion activity, a little bleach in the washing machine killed any imbedded smells. The bleach did not harm the polypro in any way.
I did find that when I was doing the multiday, heavy exertion activity, a little bleach in the washing machine killed any imbedded smells. The bleach did not harm the polypro in any way.
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Two sailboats on the water in sight of each other--a race; two sailors logged onto a forum at the same time and a topic comes up--a debate! Whadaya wanna do?
I'm sure it's a worthy "debate" for some of us!!
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Some see a debate; others see an exchange of information in the spirit of helping somebody who asked a question.
In a past life, I was a white-water kayaker. When we paddled in cold water, we wore neoprene wet suits, the same suits that cold-water surfers and divers use. They work well at keeping wet skin warm. I still wear my thin neoprene top for cold weather sailing. I don't work up a sweat when I'm sailing, so I don't care about wicking and breathability so much.
I don't much care for wet neoprene in the wind. The 2 layer fabric neoprene will get wet, then evaporate. I like how the wetsuit manufacturers started making smooth skin out neo for the upper body. It's like having only smooth neoprene with no fabric bonded to the outside. Not as durable, for sure, but water tends to bead and run off it, as opposed to soaking the fabric and evaporating. Snug fitting wetsuits are good when you're actually in the water, keeping a thin layer of warm water next to skin. I never figured how windsurfers and regular surfers do it in the winter. Then again, I guess if you're wearing a 6mm winter suit, even when you aren't in the water, it's warmer than the 3mm suits I'm used to, or the 2mm smooth glideskin shirt I have for kayaking.
Yes...If exposed to wind, the neoprene has to be topped with a windbreaker layer. In kayaking, I wore a 'dry' top over the neoprene, but legs, being inside the kayak, were good with just the neoprene.
From the Great White North...
First, a good heater/furnace and at least a dodger (the heat comes up through the hatch, and if you have a furnace mounted in the cockpit locker, it warms up the seat on the locker!).
As for clothing, I'm old-school. Long underwear is Good (tight-knit wool or synthetic - I find there's little difference), and a good heavy sweater. I just got an Aran sweater for Christmas made from Llama-wool so it doesn't scratch, and I'd love to try it out one of these days. And... if you're wearing your HW gear, how is the wool getting wet?
Basically I wear pretty much the same thing as when I'm skiing.
druid
First, a good heater/furnace and at least a dodger (the heat comes up through the hatch, and if you have a furnace mounted in the cockpit locker, it warms up the seat on the locker!).
As for clothing, I'm old-school. Long underwear is Good (tight-knit wool or synthetic - I find there's little difference), and a good heavy sweater. I just got an Aran sweater for Christmas made from Llama-wool so it doesn't scratch, and I'd love to try it out one of these days. And... if you're wearing your HW gear, how is the wool getting wet?
Basically I wear pretty much the same thing as when I'm skiing.
druid
Try this experiment in warm water so that you don't kill yourself: Put your wool gear on, jump in and try to pull yourself out. Wool absorbs water when saturated and holds it like a candle wick. It is a very imperfect solution to outdoorsmen who may find themselves in the water. Polypro, and fleece have none of those issues. Until the Navy made the switch to dry suits and neoprene divers were hoisted from the water because their wool dive suits weighed so much.
My first wetsuit was custom fitted by Navy contractors and double sided smooth neoprene. 20 mm on my torso. Beaver tail over farmer John. You needed 6 oz of cornstarch to get into it, designed to kept the user warm in ice dive conditions. Fabric lined neoprene was available for warmer waters and easier entry, but having spent a ton of time in neoprene I can't imagine wearing it all day and not getting paid to do so. To work correctly it must be tight, constrictive and unbreathable. There are much better options like dry suits, dry tops, dinghy smocks that provide ventilation, range of motion, and water protection.
My first wetsuit was custom fitted by Navy contractors and double sided smooth neoprene. 20 mm on my torso. Beaver tail over farmer John. You needed 6 oz of cornstarch to get into it, designed to kept the user warm in ice dive conditions. Fabric lined neoprene was available for warmer waters and easier entry, but having spent a ton of time in neoprene I can't imagine wearing it all day and not getting paid to do so. To work correctly it must be tight, constrictive and unbreathable. There are much better options like dry suits, dry tops, dinghy smocks that provide ventilation, range of motion, and water protection.
Yeah, that hat would be a necessity for me! Without any hair, I sometimes need one of those even when I'm sitting in my living room watching TV (because Sue keeps turning down the thermostat)!
My step son bought a hat like this just because he loved this line!
http://imoviequotes.com/uncle-buck-quotesuncle-buck-1989.html
http://imoviequotes.com/uncle-buck-quotesuncle-buck-1989.html
Yeah, I know what you mean, but clothing manufacturers have made lots of progress and we're not talking about 20mm dive suits, so unless you've tried a modern neoprene shirt, don't dismiss the fabric. Yes, it's tight to the skin, but no, not constrictive. Yes, when I'm back indoors I change to loose cotton.
My favorite cold water shirt is not neoprene, but feels like a combo of neoprene and fleece: IR Thickskin. https://www.immersionresearch.com/store/apparel/mslayering/long-sleeve-thick-skin/