Keel structure on a Hunter 37C

[James H]

I have a Hunter 37C and I am at the end of a complete refit with a big bump in the road to resplashing. I removed the keel to replace the keel bolts which are straight threaded rod. The keel is lead. My question to anyone who might know...is there a nut or plate at the bottom of the bolts that are cast in-place on these keels which allow the torquing? My son and I retorqued the bolts to 132 pounds and all held except three which I had intended to replace due to corrosion. My reasoning is that there must be a nut or plate cast in the lead because otherwise the lead threads would have stripped out surely at 132 pounds? I am going to try to send down a small camera at the bottom of the bolt holes to see what I can find but I thought someone on this forum might know. Marskeel says that these bolts are cast in place and should not have been able to be withdrawn...which smells strange to me---how do you then replace faulty bolts?

Thanks James H

 

[FastOlson]

I hope you get your answer. I always understood that lead keels have "J bolts" cast into the lead and are tightened from inside the boat. That's how my keel is attached, but different builder completely. I would believe/trust Marskeel, given their extensive experience.

 

[dmax]

Yes, generally a J or an L and then cast it place - to replace the bolts, Marskeel cuts out the surrounding lead and melts new lead in place with the new bolts.

 

[James H]

It is raining hard here so I cannot go and poke the camera in the holes to see what I may find. At this point I think there has to be a nut or plate in the casting that accepts the bolts....in another non-rainy day!

 

[dLj]

It is raining hard here so I cannot go and poke the camera in the holes to see what I may find. At this point I think there has to be a nut or plate in the casting that accepts the bolts....in another non-rainy day!

Pretty sure on that Hunter the keel bolts are J bolts and cast into the lead.

dj

 

[PaulK]

Are you doing this yourself? If not, someone at the yard should explain what they're doing. Like @dmax says, to replace faulty keelbolts they usually cut a hole or pocket in the side of the lead keel where the head or "J" of the bolt is. This uncovers the end of the bolt so that it can be cut off and then the bolt removed by pulling it up from the top. If they can't get it out they drill a new hole and make a new pocket for the new bolt - not fun. When the new bolts are in (possibly with a nut or plate on the end because it's hard to bend into a new "J" or "L") they refill the pockets so the bolts don't move.

 

[James H]

Well, it is raining cats and dogs all day so no investigation on the boat today. I do know this---none of the 14 bolts are J or L bolts as I did myself expect---before taking them out. When a friend and I were removing the nuts, he told me that the nut he was removing was instead turning the bolt itself. My stomach fell to my feet believing that this particular bolt had broken inside the casting as I thought that the keel contained J or L bolts. Come to find out all the bolts are threaded rod 3/4-10 14 inches long---as I removed all of them with the intention of replacing them all as the original ones are 40 years old. None of them showed any sign of any breakage within the casting. Eleven of the 14 could probably be reinstalled but I have purchased new ones. I am going to send the endoscope camera down tomorrow or the next day to see what is at the bottom of the holes within the casting. I expect there must be nuts or threaded plate that is holding the bolts in. I can't fathom the keel being held up by the lead threads alone. On a different note, I did have the chance once in Panama to see a guy melting down part of his keel to take the J bolts out, so God knows I did not look forward to this kind of work for this old boat.

 

[dLj]

Well, it is raining cats and dogs all day so no investigation on the boat today. I do know this---none of the 14 bolts are J or L bolts as I did myself expect---before taking them out. When a friend and I were removing the nuts, he told me that the nut he was removing was instead turning the bolt itself. My stomach fell to my feet believing that this particular bolt had broken inside the casting as I thought that the keel contained J or L bolts. Come to find out all the bolts are threaded rod 3/4-10 14 inches long---as I removed all of them with the intention of replacing them all as the original ones are 40 years old. None of them showed any sign of any breakage within the casting. Eleven of the 14 could probably be reinstalled but I have purchased new ones. I am going to send the endoscope camera down tomorrow or the next day to see what is at the bottom of the holes within the casting. I expect there must be nuts or threaded plate that is holding the bolts in. I can't fathom the keel being held up by the lead threads alone. On a different note, I did have the chance once in Panama to see a guy melting down part of his keel to take the J bolts out, so God knows I did not look forward to this kind of work for this old boat.

Interesting. I wonder if these were changed at some time in the past. I'd certainly hope you find a plate in there. Better than a nut, but sure hope at least something. If you don't have that, I'd seriously consider a bigger project.

dj

 

[James H]

Talking about the "yard". Seabrook Marine in New Orleans...STAY AWAY. They call themselves "professionals" but I would never run my business as they run theirs. When taking off the keel there was a nut that was still attached but I did not know anything about it because it was buried in 2" of glass and paint. The inept travel lift operator, instead of raising the hull up slowly an inch or so to see if there was a snag, immediately raised the whole boat up six feet in the air and before I could spit out "what are you doing?" the lone bolt broke through the stub of the boat and created a 4" hole with a crack that took me the last three months to repair. The keel fell down to the ground breaking a 6"x6" timber in two that the whole boat had sat on.....do you think the "yard" had anything to say? NO! Then, just after I fixed their first mess up, one of their forklift drivers ran into the keel with his forklift, curling back the leading edge, and toppling the whole thing on its side. When I found out and accused the "yard" of knocking over the keel, the owner said, "you have no proof, you can't prove anything." I showed him the tracks from the forklift and where the leading edge had been curled back and said it would have taken 10 men to move the keel this far over from its original placement and the leading edge did not get that way by itself...he agreed to right the keel. To right the keel I gave his "employees"---three of them including the self proclaimed "yard supervisor", four keel bolts with associated nuts, washers and the sockets and ratchets, it would take to give a chain purchase and right the keel. These fools tried to insert one bolt for about a minute before they decided that it would take too long and that they would instead insert two three inch bolts in the top of the keel and lift it from these two bolts. Of course, the 3" bolts were pulled straight out of the holes stripping the lead threads as they came out. The yard management has not given an apology, no acceptance of responsibility for what happened and no workable fix other than epoxy. I only use them to lift the boat....I would be scared $#!^less to use any of their other "services". A young man came in with a racing boat the other day and he told me he was doing a bottom job on the boat. I asked him if he was going to have the yard do the work as he did not seem to me the type to do it himself. He said, "No, we want to make sure it gets done right!"

 

[dLj]

Sorry to hear about that experience. That sucks to say the least. One of the reasons I have my boat where it is located is because the BoatWorks is phenomenal! Clearly you would be jealous...

dj

 

[Foswick]

Talking about the "yard". Seabrook Marine in New Orleans...STAY AWAY. They call themselves "professionals" but I would never run my business as they run theirs.

Yeah, we've got one of those. We took our business to them for 15 years before we finally got tired of their nonsense. (To be fair, they used to be better.) Since then, talking to other people, I've collected a long list of horror stories.

Unfortunately, they are the biggest in town and are well-positioned at the marina. So, people keep going there. I think folks are beginning to get wise, though. We are fortunate to have options.

 

[James H]

If, you are still interested. I ran an endoscopic camera down one of the bolt holes in between rain showers and I found that at the bottom 3-4" of the hole is a gold threaded material. I can only imagine this to be naval brass or muntz metal...probably in a solid bar that is bearing the weight of the keel as attached to the bolts. I could not see how the lead threads alone could support the weight of the keel. So, I am going clean each hole out with vacuum, inspect the threads with the endoscopic camera (feel like I should be a proctologist) apply some anti-seize and slip the new bolts back in and expect the same performance as the old bolts. I may stamp a small mark on each of the bolt tops, aligned bow to stern, to ensure the bolts are not backing out or turning later. Thank you for all your comments and advice. James Harvey

 

[dLj]

I would hope a bronze. Bronze nuts married to stainless threads works very well.

Are you able to take photos?

dj

 

[James H]

Sorry, no photos. The camera just has a display and no method of recording a picture or video....cheap camera.

 

[dLj]

Well, if you don't see any obvious corrosion, those are likely bronze nuts or plates. That is an excellent combination with stainless threaded rod. You do want to make sure you get enough threads seated, as you already know...

dj

 

[Johnb]

James, you would be making a huge contribution if you would add your experience and any pictures you may have to the Hunter 37-cutter Modifications and Upgrades which can be accessed at the link below. Pictures of the keel detached, the bolts, and even a picture of the face of the camera may be useful.

There are many of these boats still active, including mine. I had my keel bolts checked about 5 years ago and they were all good but I had no real idea of what was in there.

Hunter 37-cutter Owner Modifications and Upgrades

Hunter 37-cutter Owner Modifications and Upgrades

hunter.sailboatowners.com

If I can help please let me know.