probably this is a foolish question, but here it goes anyways! I love my Hunter 285, but a common complaint about it is how tender she is. A lot of people point to the fact that she has an iron keel as the cause of this. I guess the rationale is that the weight isn't low enough down from the center of gravity. Plus, iron keels have more maintenance requirements that a lead keel. so....my question is "how outlandish would it be to replace the iron keel with a lead keel? How much would a replacement keel cost?" Replies (even guesses) appreciated! Thanx! Rene Schmidt
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Tender?
If you read as many boat reviews as I have over the years, practically no owner is satisfied with their stability unless it is a flat out long keel cruiser. The 28.5 , like most boats of its size needs to reefed at around 15 knts of wind to be effective. If you still intend to investigate modifying a keel, try www.marsmetal.com who sell bulbs to put on the end of the keel etc.. I don't know the cost but I suspect it costs more money than this boat could warrant. Good sailing
If you read as many boat reviews as I have over the years, practically no owner is satisfied with their stability unless it is a flat out long keel cruiser. The 28.5 , like most boats of its size needs to reefed at around 15 knts of wind to be effective. If you still intend to investigate modifying a keel, try www.marsmetal.com who sell bulbs to put on the end of the keel etc.. I don't know the cost but I suspect it costs more money than this boat could warrant. Good sailing
No cost justification!
Rene: Iron or lead! The ballast is all the same for the same weight. This is B.S. There is a maintenance factor in salt water with the cast iron but if it done properly it should last for several years. I'm just guessing that you would spend about 50% of the value of your boat to replace the keel and what would you have? You'd have a 28.5 with a lead keel that would not be worth a dime more. Take the $10k and get something else. If you purchase a Catalina you will not need to reef as fast, because they generally have less sail area on their boats (compared to Hunters). The Hunters carry a lot of sail, which (as you have probably noticed) makes them fairly quick in lite air. Bill hit the nail on the head just REEF'R DOWN. If you are sailing out of the Emeryville Marina you are always taking a lot of wind comming and going. The best thing for you to do is leave the first reef in the main all the time and take it out if there is lite winds (very seldom, I know).
Rene: Iron or lead! The ballast is all the same for the same weight. This is B.S. There is a maintenance factor in salt water with the cast iron but if it done properly it should last for several years. I'm just guessing that you would spend about 50% of the value of your boat to replace the keel and what would you have? You'd have a 28.5 with a lead keel that would not be worth a dime more. Take the $10k and get something else. If you purchase a Catalina you will not need to reef as fast, because they generally have less sail area on their boats (compared to Hunters). The Hunters carry a lot of sail, which (as you have probably noticed) makes them fairly quick in lite air. Bill hit the nail on the head just REEF'R DOWN. If you are sailing out of the Emeryville Marina you are always taking a lot of wind comming and going. The best thing for you to do is leave the first reef in the main all the time and take it out if there is lite winds (very seldom, I know).
Consider the design...
A sailboat is designed as a complete system. Your system includes an iron keel of a certain shape. Only the designer (or maybe another on with the detailed design info) could predict what the impact of a change in a major module would mean for the rest of the boat and it's performance. I'd advise learning to optimize the design you bought because an un-designed change is more likely to reduce than improve your boats capabilities. David
A sailboat is designed as a complete system. Your system includes an iron keel of a certain shape. Only the designer (or maybe another on with the detailed design info) could predict what the impact of a change in a major module would mean for the rest of the boat and it's performance. I'd advise learning to optimize the design you bought because an un-designed change is more likely to reduce than improve your boats capabilities. David
28.5 keel
You don't mention whether you have a shoal or fin keel but I'll assume fin, not that it really matters anyway. When I owned my 28.5 I found her quick to heel to about 15 degrees but quite stable after that. What are you carrying for a headsail, perhaps you are overpowering? The suggeations to reef after about 15 knots is sound, I would reef the headsail first then the main as needed. Unless you increased the weight of the keel, 3100 lbs of lead is the same as 3100 lbs of steel is the same as 3100 lbs of feathers!
You don't mention whether you have a shoal or fin keel but I'll assume fin, not that it really matters anyway. When I owned my 28.5 I found her quick to heel to about 15 degrees but quite stable after that. What are you carrying for a headsail, perhaps you are overpowering? The suggeations to reef after about 15 knots is sound, I would reef the headsail first then the main as needed. Unless you increased the weight of the keel, 3100 lbs of lead is the same as 3100 lbs of steel is the same as 3100 lbs of feathers!
3100 pounds of lead is not the same as 3100 pounds
If you make a lead keel of the same size and shape as a cast iron keel the mass of the keel will be significantly different. If you make a lead keel of the same weight as the cast iron keel the shape will be significantly different. Either way you will be dramatically changing the boat and must assess with analysis what you are doing. For the same size keel but much more massive will the keel bolts hold it? Is the hull designed to take this extra loading? For the same weight and different shape will the weather helm be the same, will leeway get worse? I like the last idea, replace the keel with 3100 pounds of feathers and see what happens. dave
If you make a lead keel of the same size and shape as a cast iron keel the mass of the keel will be significantly different. If you make a lead keel of the same weight as the cast iron keel the shape will be significantly different. Either way you will be dramatically changing the boat and must assess with analysis what you are doing. For the same size keel but much more massive will the keel bolts hold it? Is the hull designed to take this extra loading? For the same weight and different shape will the weather helm be the same, will leeway get worse? I like the last idea, replace the keel with 3100 pounds of feathers and see what happens. dave
Sail Plan?
There are two major items that can affect heeeling: Sail plan and sail shape. One of the advantages to the tall rig is that you can keep sailing in light air while other boats with a shorter rig have to power up. As a couple previous posters mentioned if the sail plan is too large for the conditions this will cause too much heel. Besides heeling, the other thing that happens when carrying too much sail area for the conditions the sails are in the process of getting blown out. Sail shape: If the sails have too much draft, such as when they're blown out, the heeling will increase if one is sailing by the wind angle on the luff. The alternative is to sail by the leach tell tails in which case, with blown out sails, the luff is being luffed and the boat isn't performing. Sail Plan: The solution to the tenderness problem, if the sails are not blown out, is to put a reef/another reef in the main and use a smaller jib area. Reducing the jib area means either changing to a smaller jib or, if the jib is a reefing jib, furling it in accordingly. With a stronger breeze and smaller sail area the boat will not heel as much, the weather helm will be reduced, it will be easier to control the boat, and everybody will have more fun. Sail trim: Is the main and jib sheeted in too tight going to weather? This could be a contributing factor too. With blown out sails there is not much that can be done for sailing performance. The boat will heel more and sail like a slug so the soulution is to either get them recut (stop-gap measure) or buy new sails. If you've been sailing on the San Francisco bay my guess is you might be in the market for new sails. We recently bought new sails and opted for a sailcloth weight that was the next weight heavier than the OEM sails so they'd last longer. Try some combinations this weekend and see what works better.
There are two major items that can affect heeeling: Sail plan and sail shape. One of the advantages to the tall rig is that you can keep sailing in light air while other boats with a shorter rig have to power up. As a couple previous posters mentioned if the sail plan is too large for the conditions this will cause too much heel. Besides heeling, the other thing that happens when carrying too much sail area for the conditions the sails are in the process of getting blown out. Sail shape: If the sails have too much draft, such as when they're blown out, the heeling will increase if one is sailing by the wind angle on the luff. The alternative is to sail by the leach tell tails in which case, with blown out sails, the luff is being luffed and the boat isn't performing. Sail Plan: The solution to the tenderness problem, if the sails are not blown out, is to put a reef/another reef in the main and use a smaller jib area. Reducing the jib area means either changing to a smaller jib or, if the jib is a reefing jib, furling it in accordingly. With a stronger breeze and smaller sail area the boat will not heel as much, the weather helm will be reduced, it will be easier to control the boat, and everybody will have more fun. Sail trim: Is the main and jib sheeted in too tight going to weather? This could be a contributing factor too. With blown out sails there is not much that can be done for sailing performance. The boat will heel more and sail like a slug so the soulution is to either get them recut (stop-gap measure) or buy new sails. If you've been sailing on the San Francisco bay my guess is you might be in the market for new sails. We recently bought new sails and opted for a sailcloth weight that was the next weight heavier than the OEM sails so they'd last longer. Try some combinations this weekend and see what works better.
Do you have roller furling?
Rene - This may sound way off topic at first, but hear me out. I agree with the others that it is not practicable to replace the keel. For me its not the money - I have more money in my boat that the purchase price; its justified because I love the boat and have made her what I want to be - my opinion on the keel is from the aspect of marine architecture. You just don't know what you're going to do to the boat if you mess with it. I think your answer is really to get a good roller furling headsail with a foam luff so that the sail shape will stay clean as you reef it. Here in Casco Bay, the wind can go from 5 knots to 20 knots and back and back again inside half an hour. I tend to sail with one reef in my mainsail and my roller furled genny (135%) fully deployed. This is plenty for hull speed in anything over about 7 knots. As the wind pipes up I just reef in some headsail, as it slacks I let it out. Another thing that really matters is the condition of your sails. If they're blown out, you will not be able to pull them tight enough to reduce heel no matter what you do. So - were I you, I would get a decent roller furler, new headsail with foam luff, and a new main. I would have at least two reef points in the main, and I would specify full battens, cunningham, flattening, and personally I would go with a loose foot; all of these will increase your ability to flatten the sail. I haven't spec'd all this stuff for your boat, but on my boat we are talking about less than $3000. Advice worth what you paid for it - but its what I'd do. Justin - O'day Owners' Web
Rene - This may sound way off topic at first, but hear me out. I agree with the others that it is not practicable to replace the keel. For me its not the money - I have more money in my boat that the purchase price; its justified because I love the boat and have made her what I want to be - my opinion on the keel is from the aspect of marine architecture. You just don't know what you're going to do to the boat if you mess with it. I think your answer is really to get a good roller furling headsail with a foam luff so that the sail shape will stay clean as you reef it. Here in Casco Bay, the wind can go from 5 knots to 20 knots and back and back again inside half an hour. I tend to sail with one reef in my mainsail and my roller furled genny (135%) fully deployed. This is plenty for hull speed in anything over about 7 knots. As the wind pipes up I just reef in some headsail, as it slacks I let it out. Another thing that really matters is the condition of your sails. If they're blown out, you will not be able to pull them tight enough to reduce heel no matter what you do. So - were I you, I would get a decent roller furler, new headsail with foam luff, and a new main. I would have at least two reef points in the main, and I would specify full battens, cunningham, flattening, and personally I would go with a loose foot; all of these will increase your ability to flatten the sail. I haven't spec'd all this stuff for your boat, but on my boat we are talking about less than $3000. Advice worth what you paid for it - but its what I'd do. Justin - O'day Owners' Web
lead keels
ok ,i'm going out on a limb here.#1. anything can be done for a price.there is a company in canada(mars metals) that will make you a lead keel to fit your boat and bolt pattern. you say your boat is tender? so you can have the keel made heavier,or deeper with a bulb at the bottom or any design you wish
ok ,i'm going out on a limb here.#1. anything can be done for a price.there is a company in canada(mars metals) that will make you a lead keel to fit your boat and bolt pattern. you say your boat is tender? so you can have the keel made heavier,or deeper with a bulb at the bottom or any design you wish
Buy bigger rather than change keel
Buy bigger rather than change keel and you'll love the fact that the bigger boat isn't tender . . . and not have the hassle of changing keels.
Buy bigger rather than change keel and you'll love the fact that the bigger boat isn't tender . . . and not have the hassle of changing keels.
Backstay Adjuster
And here's another idea: add a backstay adjuster. Cost for a pincer type (this has 5 sheaves) and some line would be less than $100. When going to weather just crank it up to take the sag out of the headstay, reduce the draft in the jib, and the boat will point better and heel less. When going downwind backoff on the headstay tension. If you have a split backstay a backstay adjuster is far and away the cheapest addition to your boat to improve windward performance. It can be used to good advantage no matter what you decide. Other resoruces: Once you gather your ideas together, suggest talking to your local sailmakers. Take some pictures looking up the sail and get as much of the foot of the sail in the picture as possible, this will help the sailmaker determine your draft location and depth. If you sail on San Francisco bay, and your boat is a 28.5 which has been around a few years, and if the sails are original, I'll bet sail shape is the problem. On the Bay most sailors prefer shallow draft sails for that typical 20+ knot afternoon breeze.
And here's another idea: add a backstay adjuster. Cost for a pincer type (this has 5 sheaves) and some line would be less than $100. When going to weather just crank it up to take the sag out of the headstay, reduce the draft in the jib, and the boat will point better and heel less. When going downwind backoff on the headstay tension. If you have a split backstay a backstay adjuster is far and away the cheapest addition to your boat to improve windward performance. It can be used to good advantage no matter what you decide. Other resoruces: Once you gather your ideas together, suggest talking to your local sailmakers. Take some pictures looking up the sail and get as much of the foot of the sail in the picture as possible, this will help the sailmaker determine your draft location and depth. If you sail on San Francisco bay, and your boat is a 28.5 which has been around a few years, and if the sails are original, I'll bet sail shape is the problem. On the Bay most sailors prefer shallow draft sails for that typical 20+ knot afternoon breeze.
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