Good day to all, I've got a significant repair to do on my keel, and I've poured over every forum post and online article in hopes of finding something on point. I'm now reaching out to anyone who might be able to share his or her experience. I'm an experienced sailor, but I haven't done much glass work...and nothing quite like this before. I got the boat late last season and this winter discovered damage to the keel that was painted over (comments on that and our survey are another story...I'm trying to focus on the repair). The damage (and subsequent old, failing patch) is on the front edge of the keel about a foot below the keel/hull joint. I don't have a picture, but if you took a sheet of 8 1/2" by 11" paper and folded it over the front of the keel you would just about cover the dent. The fiberglass was clearly breached and now the patch is failing. I've picked away a piece of the patch and I can see the lead clear as day. How would you proceed? My first go at an educated process goes something like this: 1. Grind out the old material. (Anything special I should know about grinding around the lead?) 2. Inspect the area & allow to dry as necessary. 3. If ANYTHING looks above my head, get a professional to look at it. I've got an estimate for the aforementioned $1,600 and I'm are just giving my best shot at DIY. I'm not a blue-water sailor, but mostly sail the bay...time being what it is. 4. If a) it looks clean and spiffy or b) the professional says it looks like a doable DIY job, then rough up the lead. 5. Apply thin coat of epoxy. 6. Apply sufficient amount of filler and fairing compound. (West System?) 7. Make her smooth with appropriate sanding. 8. Seal with Interprotect. I know I'm leaving out key ingredients here, but I'm determined to take a well thought-out course that won't sink my budget.
- Status
Drain
Mike: Add drill Drain Hole at bottom of keel to your 1& 2 1. Grind out the old material. (Anything special I should know about grinding around the lead?) 2. Inspect the area & allow to dry as necessary.
Mike: Add drill Drain Hole at bottom of keel to your 1& 2 1. Grind out the old material. (Anything special I should know about grinding around the lead?) 2. Inspect the area & allow to dry as necessary.
You're on courese, Mike...
This is not a major problem. You said that it is below the keel/hull joint, so that is good. Just clean out the bad area (sand, grind, scrape, etc.)and build up the area with fiberglass and resin, then finish. Any lead you might loose is minor, it won't effect the weight distribution hardly. You can do it, and you will learn while doing, and that is very good. Once finished, just paint, using the proper paints (just make sure that you seal it well. Good luck...
This is not a major problem. You said that it is below the keel/hull joint, so that is good. Just clean out the bad area (sand, grind, scrape, etc.)and build up the area with fiberglass and resin, then finish. Any lead you might loose is minor, it won't effect the weight distribution hardly. You can do it, and you will learn while doing, and that is very good. Once finished, just paint, using the proper paints (just make sure that you seal it well. Good luck...
Sounds about right...
Mike, There's one important point you left out: Is the purpose of this repar to keep the keel from falling off, or is the purpose of the repair to keep the hull & keel fair and with minimal drag? If it's structural, you should definitely get some professional advice. If you just want to keep water out of the laminate and keep drag below the waterline to a minimum, it shouldn't be too difficult to do. I'd HIGHLY recommend that you get the West System booklet on fiberglass repair. I believe they have an example of typical keel repair. They'll recommend the right additives to mix into your epoxy to make a strong, watertight repair that's permanent. Good luck with the fix! Allen Schweitzer s/v Falstaff C-30 Hull# 632
Mike, There's one important point you left out: Is the purpose of this repar to keep the keel from falling off, or is the purpose of the repair to keep the hull & keel fair and with minimal drag? If it's structural, you should definitely get some professional advice. If you just want to keep water out of the laminate and keep drag below the waterline to a minimum, it shouldn't be too difficult to do. I'd HIGHLY recommend that you get the West System booklet on fiberglass repair. I believe they have an example of typical keel repair. They'll recommend the right additives to mix into your epoxy to make a strong, watertight repair that's permanent. Good luck with the fix! Allen Schweitzer s/v Falstaff C-30 Hull# 632
Just did it
I just pulled my boat monday and found the same problem. the fiberglass was cracked about 1 foot below the bottom of the boat on the keel. I did the following repair 1. Scraped out all the loose stuff 2. Used a heat gun to dry it out 3. Used a grinder and beveled out the glass. 4. mixed up some West epoxy and put a coat on the crack 5.Mixed up some epoxy with some 404 additive in it and put a coat in the crack and 1" each side 6. Put a 1/2"strip of glass in crack with some epoxy mix over it. 7. went over it with a 2" piece of glass/ 8. Applied some more eposy mix. 9. Grind it down and paint it Looks good
I just pulled my boat monday and found the same problem. the fiberglass was cracked about 1 foot below the bottom of the boat on the keel. I did the following repair 1. Scraped out all the loose stuff 2. Used a heat gun to dry it out 3. Used a grinder and beveled out the glass. 4. mixed up some West epoxy and put a coat on the crack 5.Mixed up some epoxy with some 404 additive in it and put a coat in the crack and 1" each side 6. Put a 1/2"strip of glass in crack with some epoxy mix over it. 7. went over it with a 2" piece of glass/ 8. Applied some more eposy mix. 9. Grind it down and paint it Looks good
Keel Repair
Hi Mike, First of all, I wouldn't use epoxy. It's expensive, should be used only with fiberglass designed to be used with epoxy, if your going to gel-coat over the repair, gel-coat doesn'tstick that well to epoxy and you just don't need to use epoxy. There's a saying in boatyards...'if it's made with polyester, you repair with polyester'. The same goes for epoxy and vinylester. Grind back the laminate using a 12 to 1 ratio. That is, if the laminate is 1/4" thick, grind back 3". Do not make the repair form a square or triangle etc. The shape of the repair should be round or oval. After finishing grinding, ruff-up the lead so it's shiney. Imediatly after that, paint on a layer of lay-up resin on the lead. You can cover the ground out part with tape so lead pieces don't get into the lay-up. Next cut out the layers of mat and roving. Make them so that each layer is about 1/2" lager than the previous layer but this will depend upon the weight of the material you use. Glass is much easier to cut if you use those sissors that cut in a zig-zag.The glass doesn't try to'get away from you'. you'll see what I mean. Next you can paint on styrene to the ground laminate. This softens and rekicks the old laminate a little so that you get a molecular bond instead of just a gluing between the old and new laminate. Also, don't use a junk resin like "boatyard" or "evercoat". Go to a reputable yard and buy good resin.I've done alot of glass repair professionally and believe me... it WILL make a difference. And for what you will pay for a quart of junk, you can buy a gallon of the good stuff. Do you plan to do the lay-up all at once? Or take time off before your done? If your going to take a break, you need to use 'lay-up resin' that doesn't contain wax. The best way to lay-up is to use lay -up resin on all layers while only using 'finish' resin (which contains wax)on the last layer. You can make your own by lighting a plain candle and dropping two drops to 6oz of finish resin. Or you can wait till the resin kicks and paint or spray on P.V.A.(Poly vinal alcohol). Like wax, this seals out air from air inhibited resin alowing the stuff to cure on the last layer. Got a couple of 1" chip brushes and a metal glass roller? Use a roller not a brush to roll out the air bubbles from the laminate and the metal ones can be cleaned over and over again without dammaging the roller. Keep a mixxing container with an inch or so of acetone in it and store the roller in this between layers as you roll air out of each layer of new laminate. Do you need pointers on tecnique?? Catalizing resin, how much to use etc,etc?? I'll keep going if needed. Dennis P.S.I wonder if your keel was hit hard enough to have caused dammage to the area where the keel atatches to the hull fore and aft...hmmmm.
Hi Mike, First of all, I wouldn't use epoxy. It's expensive, should be used only with fiberglass designed to be used with epoxy, if your going to gel-coat over the repair, gel-coat doesn'tstick that well to epoxy and you just don't need to use epoxy. There's a saying in boatyards...'if it's made with polyester, you repair with polyester'. The same goes for epoxy and vinylester. Grind back the laminate using a 12 to 1 ratio. That is, if the laminate is 1/4" thick, grind back 3". Do not make the repair form a square or triangle etc. The shape of the repair should be round or oval. After finishing grinding, ruff-up the lead so it's shiney. Imediatly after that, paint on a layer of lay-up resin on the lead. You can cover the ground out part with tape so lead pieces don't get into the lay-up. Next cut out the layers of mat and roving. Make them so that each layer is about 1/2" lager than the previous layer but this will depend upon the weight of the material you use. Glass is much easier to cut if you use those sissors that cut in a zig-zag.The glass doesn't try to'get away from you'. you'll see what I mean. Next you can paint on styrene to the ground laminate. This softens and rekicks the old laminate a little so that you get a molecular bond instead of just a gluing between the old and new laminate. Also, don't use a junk resin like "boatyard" or "evercoat". Go to a reputable yard and buy good resin.I've done alot of glass repair professionally and believe me... it WILL make a difference. And for what you will pay for a quart of junk, you can buy a gallon of the good stuff. Do you plan to do the lay-up all at once? Or take time off before your done? If your going to take a break, you need to use 'lay-up resin' that doesn't contain wax. The best way to lay-up is to use lay -up resin on all layers while only using 'finish' resin (which contains wax)on the last layer. You can make your own by lighting a plain candle and dropping two drops to 6oz of finish resin. Or you can wait till the resin kicks and paint or spray on P.V.A.(Poly vinal alcohol). Like wax, this seals out air from air inhibited resin alowing the stuff to cure on the last layer. Got a couple of 1" chip brushes and a metal glass roller? Use a roller not a brush to roll out the air bubbles from the laminate and the metal ones can be cleaned over and over again without dammaging the roller. Keep a mixxing container with an inch or so of acetone in it and store the roller in this between layers as you roll air out of each layer of new laminate. Do you need pointers on tecnique?? Catalizing resin, how much to use etc,etc?? I'll keep going if needed. Dennis P.S.I wonder if your keel was hit hard enough to have caused dammage to the area where the keel atatches to the hull fore and aft...hmmmm.
keel repair
Mike, let me add my two cents. All pretty good advice so far, how ever what wasn't said is that regular glass mat doesn't absorb epoxy resin very well, due to the binders used in the mat, if I remember it correctly. So if your going to use epoxy you'll have to spend the dough for mat formulated for epoxy. I do this stuff for a living and I'd recommend that since it's not a structural repair you save your money, buy some "Boatyard Resin", roll up your sleeves and dive in. Plus with the poly resin you might be able to finish the job in one day since cure time is much faster than West epoxy. As for filling the dent you can use a 3M epoxy filler made for metal, fiberglass etc. and underwater use. After you've ground the glass around the damage fill and fair the dent to the bottom of the taper that you ground out, once fair wet out the filler and taper with resin, lay up your glass and let it cure. Once cured do your finish grinding and final fairirng with a polyester filler suitable for under water use such as Americas Cup filler etc. The reason for the poly filler is that epoxy cures and adheres well under polyester but not on top of recent applications because polyester continues to out-gas long after it's cured. Also pick up a copy of the Gougeon Brothers repair book. It deals with using West System epoxy not polyester but the repair techniques are the same and are detailed very well for the DIYer. By the way Mike, I'd love to get $1600.00 for this kind of repair, I could retire early. Based on your description it sounds like 8-10 hours work tops. Good luck, and if you have any questions you can e-mail me at: gmjmarine@comcast.net
Mike, let me add my two cents. All pretty good advice so far, how ever what wasn't said is that regular glass mat doesn't absorb epoxy resin very well, due to the binders used in the mat, if I remember it correctly. So if your going to use epoxy you'll have to spend the dough for mat formulated for epoxy. I do this stuff for a living and I'd recommend that since it's not a structural repair you save your money, buy some "Boatyard Resin", roll up your sleeves and dive in. Plus with the poly resin you might be able to finish the job in one day since cure time is much faster than West epoxy. As for filling the dent you can use a 3M epoxy filler made for metal, fiberglass etc. and underwater use. After you've ground the glass around the damage fill and fair the dent to the bottom of the taper that you ground out, once fair wet out the filler and taper with resin, lay up your glass and let it cure. Once cured do your finish grinding and final fairirng with a polyester filler suitable for under water use such as Americas Cup filler etc. The reason for the poly filler is that epoxy cures and adheres well under polyester but not on top of recent applications because polyester continues to out-gas long after it's cured. Also pick up a copy of the Gougeon Brothers repair book. It deals with using West System epoxy not polyester but the repair techniques are the same and are detailed very well for the DIYer. By the way Mike, I'd love to get $1600.00 for this kind of repair, I could retire early. Based on your description it sounds like 8-10 hours work tops. Good luck, and if you have any questions you can e-mail me at: gmjmarine@comcast.net
Test Report - Polyester over Epoxy
Mike correctly indicates that the conventional wisdom claims that Polyester won’t properly adhere to Epoxy. Gougeon Brothers have reported on some of their recent testing , suggesting otherwise. In part they conclude: “... Our test clearly demonstrates that polyester gelcoat will bond to a properly prepared WEST SYSTEM® epoxy as well as to a cured polyester laminate. This test confirms that polyester gelcoats can be applied over cured WEST SYSTEM epoxy on repairs below the waterline.” - Goto - WEST System “Epoxy Works #22” (Winter ‘04) “POLYESTER OVER EPOXY” http://westsystem.com/ewmag/ - and for further advice Goto - “Epoxy Works #17" “REPAIRING INDIVIDUAL and EARLY STAGE GELCOAT BLISTERS” http://westsystem.com/ewmag/17/index17.html Regards, Gord
Mike correctly indicates that the conventional wisdom claims that Polyester won’t properly adhere to Epoxy. Gougeon Brothers have reported on some of their recent testing , suggesting otherwise. In part they conclude: “... Our test clearly demonstrates that polyester gelcoat will bond to a properly prepared WEST SYSTEM® epoxy as well as to a cured polyester laminate. This test confirms that polyester gelcoats can be applied over cured WEST SYSTEM epoxy on repairs below the waterline.” - Goto - WEST System “Epoxy Works #22” (Winter ‘04) “POLYESTER OVER EPOXY” http://westsystem.com/ewmag/ - and for further advice Goto - “Epoxy Works #17" “REPAIRING INDIVIDUAL and EARLY STAGE GELCOAT BLISTERS” http://westsystem.com/ewmag/17/index17.html Regards, Gord
Polyester over epoxy
Gord, Mike's not the only one who said it, I said it also. I'll say this too; The cost and the difference in tecnique does not justify the use of epoxy. I can definitely see laying-up an entire boat with epoxy or making parts like dorade's or lockers etc,etc but for repair it just doesn't make sence. Gel-coat blisters don't need it either. I've have done at least 15 complete bottom jobs. This is corn cobb blasting the entire bottom enough to expose voids or poor lay-up or other reasons. Filling the voids with a polyester slurry.(cabosil thickened polyester). Bottom line...if your entire boat is made with polyester, does it make sence to have this ONE "super strong" spot??? Of coarse Gougean Bros. are going to tell you "you have to use this cause it's superior" their the one's selling you the stuff. I've worked at three different boatyards and had a side buisness and HAVE used it but you just don't need to. Thik about it. Your mixxing two different materials together when you don't have to, Kinda like putting hard paint over an ablative. Dennis
Gord, Mike's not the only one who said it, I said it also. I'll say this too; The cost and the difference in tecnique does not justify the use of epoxy. I can definitely see laying-up an entire boat with epoxy or making parts like dorade's or lockers etc,etc but for repair it just doesn't make sence. Gel-coat blisters don't need it either. I've have done at least 15 complete bottom jobs. This is corn cobb blasting the entire bottom enough to expose voids or poor lay-up or other reasons. Filling the voids with a polyester slurry.(cabosil thickened polyester). Bottom line...if your entire boat is made with polyester, does it make sence to have this ONE "super strong" spot??? Of coarse Gougean Bros. are going to tell you "you have to use this cause it's superior" their the one's selling you the stuff. I've worked at three different boatyards and had a side buisness and HAVE used it but you just don't need to. Thik about it. Your mixxing two different materials together when you don't have to, Kinda like putting hard paint over an ablative. Dennis
Ignore the bad advice!
Stick with your plan of using epoxy. Anyone that advises using polyester to repair any laminate clearly doesn't understand the chemistry involved. Plenty of bad advice here and from 'conventional' wisdom also. The article from the Gougeon Bros. is discussing applying polyester gel-coat to cured epoxy as a finish...not a strucural repair. If you read the whole article, they plainly state why polyester is not a suitable repair material. Odds are, that is why the previous repair on your keel is failing. I am speaking from my experience as Supervisor of Quality Control for Seacrest Marine, (a boat manufacturer and now defunct oil embargo fatality). The products and technology have improved since then, but the basic chemistry is the same. If you want a real eye-opener, take a stiff putty knife (painter's 7-in-one tool) to the tabbing in your boat if it is more than 15 years old. It will usually lift off like stiff duct tape. Tabbing was often applied after the hull cured. The better builders today know this and get the structural components tabbed in while the hull is green and in the mold or use epoxy.
Stick with your plan of using epoxy. Anyone that advises using polyester to repair any laminate clearly doesn't understand the chemistry involved. Plenty of bad advice here and from 'conventional' wisdom also. The article from the Gougeon Bros. is discussing applying polyester gel-coat to cured epoxy as a finish...not a strucural repair. If you read the whole article, they plainly state why polyester is not a suitable repair material. Odds are, that is why the previous repair on your keel is failing. I am speaking from my experience as Supervisor of Quality Control for Seacrest Marine, (a boat manufacturer and now defunct oil embargo fatality). The products and technology have improved since then, but the basic chemistry is the same. If you want a real eye-opener, take a stiff putty knife (painter's 7-in-one tool) to the tabbing in your boat if it is more than 15 years old. It will usually lift off like stiff duct tape. Tabbing was often applied after the hull cured. The better builders today know this and get the structural components tabbed in while the hull is green and in the mold or use epoxy.
Bad Advise?? Chris Burti
Chris, You,ve got alot of nerve calling my advise bad. It's not. If what you say is true about polyester not being suitable for repair, then there should be repairs falling apart all over the world. Now I'm going to have to go to those boatyards that I worked at and all the other boatyards all over New England and tell them they,ve been doing it all wrong. Can I drop your name? The fact that you were the quality control guy for a manufacturer that went out of business should carry alot of clout. Fact is that any repair can fail if it is done incorrectly(which is common)or if poor materials were used(which also is common). You say that tabbing can fail after at least 15 years? Or 20 or mabey even...25?? So what your telling me is that all the glass repairs and modifications that I,ve done in the past 14 years are only going to last 15 to 25 years? Heck, thats fine with me! Most boats don't even last that long. But mabey your right. Show me a boat thats had the bulkheads glassed with epoxy 15 years ago or more and I'll go inspect her. 6 years ago I built an anchor platform for my Endeavour 32. I used 1"x2" teak and bonded it together with G.B. epoxy. It holds a CQR20 and a Bruce 33. I,ve done alot of anchoring since then. Is the epoxy still holding? Idon,t know because I also through bolted it after I applied the epoxy and clamped it under pressure(under pressure)but I'd have to say yes, it's holding just fine. It hasn't cracked or shown signs of comming apart. Epoxy is excellant when used to bond (Applied and clamped under pressure)but to use it on any old repair?,It's overkill.You can use it if you want to but you just don't need to. I definatly wouldn't use it on the type of repair needed on the formentioned keel. If done correctly, a polyester repair will last a boat life time. If people reading this string don't believe what I'm saying, just go around to the boatyards and see what they use. Look at repairs that were done a long time ago. Talk to the glass guys and you'll see. Dennis
Chris, You,ve got alot of nerve calling my advise bad. It's not. If what you say is true about polyester not being suitable for repair, then there should be repairs falling apart all over the world. Now I'm going to have to go to those boatyards that I worked at and all the other boatyards all over New England and tell them they,ve been doing it all wrong. Can I drop your name? The fact that you were the quality control guy for a manufacturer that went out of business should carry alot of clout. Fact is that any repair can fail if it is done incorrectly(which is common)or if poor materials were used(which also is common). You say that tabbing can fail after at least 15 years? Or 20 or mabey even...25?? So what your telling me is that all the glass repairs and modifications that I,ve done in the past 14 years are only going to last 15 to 25 years? Heck, thats fine with me! Most boats don't even last that long. But mabey your right. Show me a boat thats had the bulkheads glassed with epoxy 15 years ago or more and I'll go inspect her. 6 years ago I built an anchor platform for my Endeavour 32. I used 1"x2" teak and bonded it together with G.B. epoxy. It holds a CQR20 and a Bruce 33. I,ve done alot of anchoring since then. Is the epoxy still holding? Idon,t know because I also through bolted it after I applied the epoxy and clamped it under pressure(under pressure)but I'd have to say yes, it's holding just fine. It hasn't cracked or shown signs of comming apart. Epoxy is excellant when used to bond (Applied and clamped under pressure)but to use it on any old repair?,It's overkill.You can use it if you want to but you just don't need to. I definatly wouldn't use it on the type of repair needed on the formentioned keel. If done correctly, a polyester repair will last a boat life time. If people reading this string don't believe what I'm saying, just go around to the boatyards and see what they use. Look at repairs that were done a long time ago. Talk to the glass guys and you'll see. Dennis
Epoxy
"just go around to the boatyards and see what they use." The boatyard that did work for me uses West epoxy. Without getting into all the ego goo, one thing that epoxy has going for it is the fumes aren't nearly as bad. I couldn't imagine using polyester resin in an enclosed space. Been there. Unless you use a full face respirator, the fumes get you stoned and sting your eyes. I've been retabbing everything inside my O'25 the past couple of weeks. Like Chris points out, you can tear it off with a gloved hand. Yea I know, it's really really old. The added cost of epoxy resin isn't really a factor for me.
"just go around to the boatyards and see what they use." The boatyard that did work for me uses West epoxy. Without getting into all the ego goo, one thing that epoxy has going for it is the fumes aren't nearly as bad. I couldn't imagine using polyester resin in an enclosed space. Been there. Unless you use a full face respirator, the fumes get you stoned and sting your eyes. I've been retabbing everything inside my O'25 the past couple of weeks. Like Chris points out, you can tear it off with a gloved hand. Yea I know, it's really really old. The added cost of epoxy resin isn't really a factor for me.
Windship - "most boats don't last that long"
Huh !?! What boats are YOU talking about !?! LOTS of boats last 15, 20, 25 years without even a hiccup. Even low cost lower quality boats. I owned a 1980 Watkins 27 whose fiberglass and hull was in perfectly fine shape. Lots of fiberglass boats are going on 40 years now and still going strong. I think a repair 15 years ago that is starting to fail now, would piss me off. I can't believe you *actually* said -- "all the glass repairs and modifications that I,ve done in the past 14 years are only going to last 15 to 25 years? Heck, thats fine with me!" Making the statement you made would tend to make me never to want to have a repair done by you. Fiberglass repairs can and should last much much longer than that -- anything less and the quality of the work is sub-par. And your statement that using epoxy "It's overkill.You can use it if you want to but you just don't need to." Well I'd rather have the boat yard spend another $20-$40 on the epoxy resin when you and I know the costs to repair something is much much more due to labor costs and the costs of material is a very small percentage of the overall costs. If you are going to do it, why not do it "right". I'd rather use a boat yard that doesn't cheap out like that. Not that a polyester repair can't be made to last, but.... ps When I have been around to notice repairs being done by the "Brewers" boat yards around here (which are considered some of the better boat yards and service a lot of boats and some very nice ones at that),they use West Systems Epoxy - Not saying they don't use polyester too, but they definitely use West Epoxy.
Huh !?! What boats are YOU talking about !?! LOTS of boats last 15, 20, 25 years without even a hiccup. Even low cost lower quality boats. I owned a 1980 Watkins 27 whose fiberglass and hull was in perfectly fine shape. Lots of fiberglass boats are going on 40 years now and still going strong. I think a repair 15 years ago that is starting to fail now, would piss me off. I can't believe you *actually* said -- "all the glass repairs and modifications that I,ve done in the past 14 years are only going to last 15 to 25 years? Heck, thats fine with me!" Making the statement you made would tend to make me never to want to have a repair done by you. Fiberglass repairs can and should last much much longer than that -- anything less and the quality of the work is sub-par. And your statement that using epoxy "It's overkill.You can use it if you want to but you just don't need to." Well I'd rather have the boat yard spend another $20-$40 on the epoxy resin when you and I know the costs to repair something is much much more due to labor costs and the costs of material is a very small percentage of the overall costs. If you are going to do it, why not do it "right". I'd rather use a boat yard that doesn't cheap out like that. Not that a polyester repair can't be made to last, but.... ps When I have been around to notice repairs being done by the "Brewers" boat yards around here (which are considered some of the better boat yards and service a lot of boats and some very nice ones at that),they use West Systems Epoxy - Not saying they don't use polyester too, but they definitely use West Epoxy.
Good argument for DIY
"Professionals" are often very penny-wise corner-cutters; it looks great and lasts long enough for them to get their money. They always act indignant that you pry into the details of 'their' work. Then they put the extra measures into their own boats. Using polyester for repairs is the opposite of everything I've ever heard. (I built my first fiberglass boat forty years ago.) As for the economics, a yard that does repairs all year long may be saving alot of money, and this is relevant for them. But how much do I, one boatowner, want to save on one repair on one boat to justify using lesser materials? Most boats are manufactured with economic considerations. Why would we limit ourselves to doing repairs/improvements to the original build? I want these forums to tell me more than a factory rep. My boat is thirty years old. If a PO did a repair twenty years ago with calculated durability, did he consider how long I might be owning the boat starting twenty years later? I hope he would think like most owners here.
"Professionals" are often very penny-wise corner-cutters; it looks great and lasts long enough for them to get their money. They always act indignant that you pry into the details of 'their' work. Then they put the extra measures into their own boats. Using polyester for repairs is the opposite of everything I've ever heard. (I built my first fiberglass boat forty years ago.) As for the economics, a yard that does repairs all year long may be saving alot of money, and this is relevant for them. But how much do I, one boatowner, want to save on one repair on one boat to justify using lesser materials? Most boats are manufactured with economic considerations. Why would we limit ourselves to doing repairs/improvements to the original build? I want these forums to tell me more than a factory rep. My boat is thirty years old. If a PO did a repair twenty years ago with calculated durability, did he consider how long I might be owning the boat starting twenty years later? I hope he would think like most owners here.
Original Poster sends thanks...update
My heartfelt thanks to all the brain cells out there who chipped in. I'm truly grateful for all the pointers, details, pitfalls, and cautions. I probably would be opening my checkbook really really wide right now if it weren't for all of you. I didn't want a thread of mine to start a flaming session, but I may be too late. Alas, such is the propensity of humankind. I plan on posting something on the outcome...although I'm really not sure what the appropriate location for that post is (?)...and I hope my contribution will increase the collective knowledge base for the next poor soul that has to do what I'm about to undertake. So, what have I learned? What do I plan on doing? It's a work in progress... 1. Read and reread Gougeon Brothers repair book (pub# 002-550) regarding the use of West System products and repair of fiberglass boats. (Yes, I'm leaning towards epoxy at this point) 2. Drill a hole at the bottom-most point in the keel to drain. 3. Grind grind grind away. 4. Taper the exposed area w/ a 12-1 ratio based on the thickness of the original laminate. 5. Use heat gun to dry as necessary...it's cold and wet up here. 6. Rough up the exposed lead. 7. Sand and expose other areas of hull to ensure no other related damage. (I'm fairly certain there is nothing else of significance - touch wood! - , but I'm going to sand and check any hairline gelcoat cracks at the hull/keel joint and fore/aft the keel.) 8. If even marginally necessary, then get a professional to look her over. Pay said professional fairly for honest opinion and consultation. Then, depending on outcome... 9. Purchase appropriate West System materials (don't know exactly what these are yet, but there will be a filler, fairing compound, among others no doubt). 10. Apply, cure, fill, fair, and seal (with Interprotect possibly). (Ok, this step is still in draft form - see #1) 11. Paint w/ ablative. Once again, this online resource has been invaluable to me, and I hope I can also give (humble) opinions as I listen, learn, and sail on! Cheers, Mike
My heartfelt thanks to all the brain cells out there who chipped in. I'm truly grateful for all the pointers, details, pitfalls, and cautions. I probably would be opening my checkbook really really wide right now if it weren't for all of you. I didn't want a thread of mine to start a flaming session, but I may be too late. Alas, such is the propensity of humankind. I plan on posting something on the outcome...although I'm really not sure what the appropriate location for that post is (?)...and I hope my contribution will increase the collective knowledge base for the next poor soul that has to do what I'm about to undertake. So, what have I learned? What do I plan on doing? It's a work in progress... 1. Read and reread Gougeon Brothers repair book (pub# 002-550) regarding the use of West System products and repair of fiberglass boats. (Yes, I'm leaning towards epoxy at this point) 2. Drill a hole at the bottom-most point in the keel to drain. 3. Grind grind grind away. 4. Taper the exposed area w/ a 12-1 ratio based on the thickness of the original laminate. 5. Use heat gun to dry as necessary...it's cold and wet up here. 6. Rough up the exposed lead. 7. Sand and expose other areas of hull to ensure no other related damage. (I'm fairly certain there is nothing else of significance - touch wood! - , but I'm going to sand and check any hairline gelcoat cracks at the hull/keel joint and fore/aft the keel.) 8. If even marginally necessary, then get a professional to look her over. Pay said professional fairly for honest opinion and consultation. Then, depending on outcome... 9. Purchase appropriate West System materials (don't know exactly what these are yet, but there will be a filler, fairing compound, among others no doubt). 10. Apply, cure, fill, fair, and seal (with Interprotect possibly). (Ok, this step is still in draft form - see #1) 11. Paint w/ ablative. Once again, this online resource has been invaluable to me, and I hope I can also give (humble) opinions as I listen, learn, and sail on! Cheers, Mike
Nothing personal intended Dennis, No flame!
I sincerely apologize particularly to you Dennis and to all list members, if the wording and lack of tact in my response was taken in any way as being offensive or rude. I felt that Mike needed a strong word of caution. I still stand by my statements concerning polyester and I will continue to do so until someone comes up with better data from objective testing and analysis. But, I will try to do a better job of rationally explaining why. I try to have have an open mind and hope to learn from any new objective data. Yes, you can drop my name, if you share this explanation as well, I doubt that the skilled and knowledgeable craftspeople will disagree in large measure. And, I'll be happy learn something new (one of the reasons I follow this list)...if there is any quantitative analysis to support it... and I'll be happy to apologize as well. Bros', data is pretty good, although, in fairness, I would concede that one might question their objectivity (I don't). Yes, as described, there are untold thousands of repairs out there that have not failed. But alas...there are also untold thousands of jack-leg plumbing, wiring and fuel systems (pro and amateur alike) out there that haven't sunk or incinerated boats..yet. Indubitably, there are some that have endured for decades also. Does it follow then that using the more expensive, time consuming, proven and safe proper procedures are bunk? Maybe...but I wouldn't care to sail aboard one of those vessels. I did not say, or imply, that polyester repairs will fail after any specific period of time. The age of the repair has little to do with failure causation. My statement simply reflects the the manufacturing procedures and product understanding widely in effect up to that time make it really easy to remove tabbing. It shouldn't be easy. The primary source of failure of repairs will usually be impacts or tensile or torsional stress loading...five days or fifty years down the road, it matters not. The primary cause of the failure will be, either the inadequacy of the product for the particular repair, or an inadequate repair process itself. Polyester is just not a suitable repair product for the unskilled or uninformed. Tabbing on an old dock queen will likely never fail. But ask the owners of older production boats that are sailed rigorously what they have experienced or heard concerning tabbing. Note that the greener the hull, the better the bond and the less likely the chance of failure. The ironic side note is that the high-volume builders that tended to get distorted hulls from popping them too soon, also got stronger assemblies. Note also, that I don't dispute that knowledgeable (or in some cases; lucky) repair professionals can make a poly-resin repair that will be unlikely to fail. If you understand what, why and how, you can make a mechanical bond that will hold up if the area is not highly stressed. A properly executed repair should have at least 60% of the strength of the original lamination if the same resin is used. In the classically overbuilt older boats...that should be plenty in a low load area. But, this question (and hence my response) came from someone who stated that they were a bit of a novice and should not be expected to know the technical issues. Worse, the project is on the front of a keel, near the hull joint and a prior repair has already failed...which all indicate to me that polyester is likely to be a very poor choice for a repair material. The answers advocating polyester resin as a repair material do not contain cautions about analyzing what the likely stress loading factors will be. Nor, do they provide any of the extra steps needed to achieve a good mechanical bond. This could be a recipe for a very unsatisfactory DIY job. Epoxy is fairly goof proof if you follow the instructions reasonably well. This is due to its high adhesive strength and curing properties as a thin film (which you will have in a repair). Polyester doesn't share these properties. It does not make a molecular bond with fully cured polyester and it does not cure well as a thin film. Cleanliness, correct mix and reasonable temps are the critical issues for epoxy. By the way, I stated/implied in my first comment the company I worked for went out of business due to dramatically escalating prices of petroleum based products necessary to the process. Your inference that some surmised lack of quality existed and therefore discounts the accuracy of my statements is both illogical and it felt to me like a cheap shot that ill befits the tenor of this list. Again, for me, I am very sorry to all for my lack of tact, Chris
I sincerely apologize particularly to you Dennis and to all list members, if the wording and lack of tact in my response was taken in any way as being offensive or rude. I felt that Mike needed a strong word of caution. I still stand by my statements concerning polyester and I will continue to do so until someone comes up with better data from objective testing and analysis. But, I will try to do a better job of rationally explaining why. I try to have have an open mind and hope to learn from any new objective data. Yes, you can drop my name, if you share this explanation as well, I doubt that the skilled and knowledgeable craftspeople will disagree in large measure. And, I'll be happy learn something new (one of the reasons I follow this list)...if there is any quantitative analysis to support it... and I'll be happy to apologize as well. Bros', data is pretty good, although, in fairness, I would concede that one might question their objectivity (I don't). Yes, as described, there are untold thousands of repairs out there that have not failed. But alas...there are also untold thousands of jack-leg plumbing, wiring and fuel systems (pro and amateur alike) out there that haven't sunk or incinerated boats..yet. Indubitably, there are some that have endured for decades also. Does it follow then that using the more expensive, time consuming, proven and safe proper procedures are bunk? Maybe...but I wouldn't care to sail aboard one of those vessels. I did not say, or imply, that polyester repairs will fail after any specific period of time. The age of the repair has little to do with failure causation. My statement simply reflects the the manufacturing procedures and product understanding widely in effect up to that time make it really easy to remove tabbing. It shouldn't be easy. The primary source of failure of repairs will usually be impacts or tensile or torsional stress loading...five days or fifty years down the road, it matters not. The primary cause of the failure will be, either the inadequacy of the product for the particular repair, or an inadequate repair process itself. Polyester is just not a suitable repair product for the unskilled or uninformed. Tabbing on an old dock queen will likely never fail. But ask the owners of older production boats that are sailed rigorously what they have experienced or heard concerning tabbing. Note that the greener the hull, the better the bond and the less likely the chance of failure. The ironic side note is that the high-volume builders that tended to get distorted hulls from popping them too soon, also got stronger assemblies. Note also, that I don't dispute that knowledgeable (or in some cases; lucky) repair professionals can make a poly-resin repair that will be unlikely to fail. If you understand what, why and how, you can make a mechanical bond that will hold up if the area is not highly stressed. A properly executed repair should have at least 60% of the strength of the original lamination if the same resin is used. In the classically overbuilt older boats...that should be plenty in a low load area. But, this question (and hence my response) came from someone who stated that they were a bit of a novice and should not be expected to know the technical issues. Worse, the project is on the front of a keel, near the hull joint and a prior repair has already failed...which all indicate to me that polyester is likely to be a very poor choice for a repair material. The answers advocating polyester resin as a repair material do not contain cautions about analyzing what the likely stress loading factors will be. Nor, do they provide any of the extra steps needed to achieve a good mechanical bond. This could be a recipe for a very unsatisfactory DIY job. Epoxy is fairly goof proof if you follow the instructions reasonably well. This is due to its high adhesive strength and curing properties as a thin film (which you will have in a repair). Polyester doesn't share these properties. It does not make a molecular bond with fully cured polyester and it does not cure well as a thin film. Cleanliness, correct mix and reasonable temps are the critical issues for epoxy. By the way, I stated/implied in my first comment the company I worked for went out of business due to dramatically escalating prices of petroleum based products necessary to the process. Your inference that some surmised lack of quality existed and therefore discounts the accuracy of my statements is both illogical and it felt to me like a cheap shot that ill befits the tenor of this list. Again, for me, I am very sorry to all for my lack of tact, Chris
Tom of Stanford
OK, Ok, I used some poor choises of words.(15to25 years) What I was thinking is that boats sink, burn,dissapear etc, but that is not what this is about. My boat is 27 years old and is in fine shape from stem to stern and you still cant peel the tabbing away. The Facts are that all yards use polyester in the vast majority of their repairs. And I knoticed that in your tiff you failed to quote my last sentence in the second to the last paragraph which read 'if done correctly, a polyester repair will last a boat lifetime" so, so much for me thinking that 15-25 years for a repair is good enough. May I say something else?I know I'm going to affend some (all) of you and I'm sorry but I sence here that the people posting here are doing alot of reading but don't relly have much (if any)hands on fiberglass repair experiance under your belt or else you'd know what is being used out there and you wouldn't be saying the things that you are. Dennis
OK, Ok, I used some poor choises of words.(15to25 years) What I was thinking is that boats sink, burn,dissapear etc, but that is not what this is about. My boat is 27 years old and is in fine shape from stem to stern and you still cant peel the tabbing away. The Facts are that all yards use polyester in the vast majority of their repairs. And I knoticed that in your tiff you failed to quote my last sentence in the second to the last paragraph which read 'if done correctly, a polyester repair will last a boat lifetime" so, so much for me thinking that 15-25 years for a repair is good enough. May I say something else?I know I'm going to affend some (all) of you and I'm sorry but I sence here that the people posting here are doing alot of reading but don't relly have much (if any)hands on fiberglass repair experiance under your belt or else you'd know what is being used out there and you wouldn't be saying the things that you are. Dennis
Good answers
I appreciate the thoughtful and insightful comments on this topic and those that are normally found on this board. Being a novice, I learn new things every day from fellas like Chris and Gord and others. Dennis, I'm sure you came to your opinions based upon your experiance, and your original point and perspective has been made and is as valid as anyone elses. Thanks! I that think Mike got the answers that he was looking for
Regards to all! -Jim- s/v Forever
I appreciate the thoughtful and insightful comments on this topic and those that are normally found on this board. Being a novice, I learn new things every day from fellas like Chris and Gord and others. Dennis, I'm sure you came to your opinions based upon your experiance, and your original point and perspective has been made and is as valid as anyone elses. Thanks! I that think Mike got the answers that he was looking for
Regards to all! -Jim- s/v Forever- Status