Keel lock

[agprice22]

I read posts from owners who say they do not use the keel lock. This worries me because i wonder what keeps the keel from pivoting on it's hanger when the bow rises over a wave, shifting the COG (center of gravity) rearward. The only thing that would stop this in an unpinned keel would be if the keel was pinned or pivoted from the rear. I have to admit I don't know, since I haven't owned my C22 long. If the keel were to pivot freely rearward due to a shift in the COG, couldn't it slam the front edge of the keel trunk as it returned forward, causing a crack? Isn't this the reason for the lock? If the lock is ineffective, why not design an upgrade? A pin which passes through the keel would be more effective.

 

[jfrench]

I agree with you. Without some dampening from the keel lock, the keel would constantly swing on its pivot while sailing, and would occasionally bump against its forward stop. This is a recipe for wear of the keel pivot pin and damage to the fiberglass repeatedly struck by the keel.

I think that drilling the keel to allow the pin to securely lock into the keel is not the right answer, since striking an underwater object would likely shear the pin or severely damage the fiberglass structure around it. A better approach might be to copy the lock used on a pocket knife -a notch in the upper forward edge of the keel, with a spring catch mounted above it. This type of catch would require no input from the crew, it would simply engage when the keel was lowered. It would provide an audible signal that the keel is fully lowered, and with proper shaping of the latch face, it would temporarily release in case of a keel strike.

 

[LooseDiamond]

In my experience, this would be difficult to "make" happen. I have motored and sailed into waves that would nearly prevent headway, pounding the hull on every descent. I have also broached and rounded up to the point of standing straight up on the cockpit coaming. Last year, I did the keel repair with bushing and all new hardware. My advice is maintain the mechanism, check those hangar bolts, leave the pivot pin slack, and sail the shirt out of it!

 

[StanFM]

I haven't seen the exact spot right on top of the hull and just ahead of the keel pocket, but I think that might be where the compression post support timber actually meets the hull. If so, that area just fore of the keel pocket would be nearly all filled with glass and a timber of sorts, so unless there has been some rot, wouldn't it be quite sturdy? Hopefully anyway! Someone did a poor repair on mine in the past and tried to add a second plate support for the keel lock bolt on top of the old rusted one. They even globbed some marine tex over it in spots! Leaked a half a bucket an hour when sailing. Ground it all out and glassed it over. No bolt at all now. Dry as a bone under the seat!

Stan

 

[watercolors II]

Keel stop

The keel does not come in contact with the front of the keel trunk next to the compression post but, stops against the back of the upper keel enclosure. If you look at your forward settee seat, there’s a little glass protrusion at the outer edge of the cushion, the cushion goes around the front of it. That is the very top of the upper part of the keel trunk. The part of the keel forward of the keel hanger pin swings up into this area of the hull and because of it’s side clearances keeps the keel from movement sideways.

Now the sides do not stop the keel from going down further, the shape of the upper part of the keel is so angled to come in a nice vertical stop against the back end of this higher keel pocket.

If one was to change this angle cut, on the forward end of the keel, the keel would drop more vertical under the hull, doing this would also allow the keel to become un-weighted earlier when sailing up a large wave.

I’ve attached a Catalina technical drawing of the keel and the keel trunk.

 

[Jackdaw]

I read posts from owners who say they do not use the keel lock. This worries me because i wonder what keeps the keel from pivoting on it's hanger when the bow rises over a wave, shifting the COG (center of gravity) rearward.

This is the exact reason that the keel is swept back at a 30 degree angle. The keels CG stays behind the pivot for a VERY long time. When swept back, the boat would have to assume a 30+ degree bow up angle for the keel to even think about moving. That very rarely happens, and if you are in waves like that in a Cat22 you got bigger issues.

Here's a pix of the Cat22 with the keel pivot (exact) and the the CG (estimated) located. You can see in the bottom pix how far up the bow would have to go to get the keel to move back. Ever done that in a Catalina 22? I doubt it! ;^)

 

[agprice22]

Thank you everyone for putting my query to rest! I KNEW you would know the reason why this wasn't a problem. Jackdaw, you are right, if I get the bow that high in the water, I hope to have my life insurance paid up and clean shorts on board!

Thanks all.
Andrew

 

[Bilbo]

I've compared this drawing to another from a C22 brochure and the keel angle is very similar in both. So, the angle of rotation that would be necessary to make the keel vertical is about 35 degrees up at the bow. (My estimation is based on the back edge of the keel) No C22 should be out in a sea with the sort of waves that would cause that sort of vertical pitch.
One other point to note is that the keel also has a bit of a bulb to it. What I mean is that it's wider toward the bottom that is deeper in the water when it's down. This lowers the center of gravity of the keel slightly and the C of G of the boat to decrease the angle of heel.

 

[jfrench]

I'm gonna place a fly in your ointment. Even though the weight of the keel rests against an angled stop, the face of the stop can become unweighted from the keel without the bow having to rise to a great angle. Inertia works in relation to the mass of an object. It's easier to get a paper airplane moving than a rail car. If the bow of the boat is lifted at a greater rate than the 500 pound keel can start rotating to keep up with it, the keel will move away from it's stop, then bang back into it as the bow begins coming down.

I'll continue to use the keel bolt.

 

[Chris Patterson]

The keel lock bolt. Another Catalina 22 enigma. No one, to my satisfaction, has ever come up with a logical reason for this troublesome apparatus. While not as dangerous as the pigtail, but slightly more useless than the "slide out galley", it by consensus causes more damage than it prevents.
By the very physics of this arrangement, it cannot hold the keel in ANY position, either up, or down. The keel weighs in at 550 pounds, and that little half inch bolt, held in with a teacup of fiberglass, roughly one foot from the pivot point, well......Broken fiberglass, bent "lock down bolt", or the usual gouge in the keel is the typical result. I've even heard said that in a FULL CAPSIZE, that the bolt would prevent the keel from pivoting back down violently, crashing through the hull, while simultaneously wrapping the cable around the childrens necks, and dragging them to the deep, to be slowly consumed by sharks.

OK, maybe not the child and shark thing, but I have heard the rest of it. But in all my life, I have never heard of a C22 rolling completely turtle, and if it did, as said earlier, you've got an ass load of problems, and that keel is kind of low on that problem list at that moment.

I kind of hate to admit that I have had the boat in such a pitch, that the keel did bump back down, but I have. Not much, but I'm an idiot, and I've had two other very competent and able bodied seaman at the time. I actually can not recommend this behavior. But when I do, I keep the keel cable snug, as to help absorb the shock.

The only relevant excuse that I've ever heard, (at least that makes sense to me), for that bolt is, that it was some sort of liability issue at one time for the manufacture of this boat. The only thing that Catalina has had to say about the thing is, "lock the keel bolt". No reason why. And Catalina would have to have some very compelling reason for it, to re-install one in the boat..

 

[Bilbo]

I'm gonna place a fly in your ointment. Even though the weight of the keel rests against an angled stop, the face of the stop can become unweighted from the keel without the bow having to rise to a great angle. Inertia works in relation to the mass of an object. It's easier to get a paper airplane moving than a rail car. If the bow of the boat is lifted at a greater rate than the 500 pound keel can start rotating to keep up with it, the keel will move away from it's stop, then bang back into it as the bow begins coming down.
I'll continue to use the keel bolt.

One could also assume that the lock bolt would have to slow down the keel as it would drop in the event that the boat completely capsized and so reduce the damage a tad.
I'm not against anyone's personal choice in the matter as it is their own boat but in my situation so far with experiencing up to 3 1/2 ft waves head on on my lake, I've not seen this happen....as yet. Perhaps this is because of the weight of the 550lb keel and the 30-35deg leeway of angle that is included in the design.

One issue regarding this lock bolt is that the leverage of the winch system alows that it isn't noticeable whether the bolt is locked or not when one inadvertently raises the keel with the bolt locked.

Another situation that we may then consider dangerous is when we ground out the keel over a shallow spot with a sudden drop.....like a log. Then the keel will drop against the stop (or the cable) suddenly.

 

[Bilbo]

The keel lock bolt. Another Catalina 22 enigma. No one, to my satisfaction, has ever come up with a logical reason for this troublesome apparatus. While not as dangerous as the pigtail,

Sorry for my disagreement on the use of the pigtail. It works for me. I have no use for a topping lift.

By the very physics of this arrangement, it cannot hold the keel in ANY position, either up, or down. The keel weighs in at 550 pounds, and that little half inch bolt, held in with a teacup of fiberglass, roughly one foot from the pivot point, well......Broken fiberglass, bent "lock down bolt", or the usual gouge in the keel is the typical result. I've even heard said that in a FULL CAPSIZE, that the bolt would prevent the keel from pivoting back down violently, crashing through the hull, while simultaneously wrapping the cable around the childrens necks, and dragging them to the deep, to be slowly consumed by sharks.

OK, maybe not the child and shark thing, but I have heard the rest of it. But in all my life, I have never heard of a C22 rolling completely turtle, and if it did, as said earlier, you've got an ass load of problems, and that keel is kind of low on that problem list at that moment.......

This did happen (All but the keel cable, kids, shark part) It's unusual but a few years ago in lake Michigan, they sunk a C22 that way. Of course, when the boat went turtle, it was going down no matter what the keel did. This is because the hole in the hull for the cable lets the air out of the overturned craft and water fills pretty quickly.
They pitchpoled the C22 named> Moonraker < in 4 ft waves with a genoa http://www.first407.com/node/7
It took probably about 2 minutes to sink.
But yeah, I'd hate to be between the boat and the keel if this was going happen though.

 

[jfrench]

It's amazing that these boats retain a good safety record with all the little safety shortcomings they have:

1. Curtain auto-light from the alcohol stove
2. Instant-sink rubber hose on keel cable
3. 500 lb. keel supported by fiberglass
4. No flotation foam
5. Fuel tanks vented to cabin area

There's probably more that aren't coming to mind at the moment. Maybe it's a good thing that mine spends most of its time on the trailer!

 

[jfrench]

Item #16 on the drawing "Watercolors" posted shows an item that almost appears to be a one inch x 12" steel strap between the lock screw and the keel. If such a thing is in there, it would certainly improve the locking capability of the system.

 

[Bilbo]

It's amazing that these boats retain a good safety record with all the little safety shortcomings they have:

1. Curtain auto-light from the alcohol stove

They discontinued the Alcohol stove and sliding galley in the new style.

2. Instant-sink rubber hose on keel cable

These hoses (If they are the factory quality) or C/D bought and their clamps are rather durable and can last a few decades if they are installed correctly.

3. 500 lb. keel supported by fiberglass

actually, 550 lbs but the real issue for me is that it's only supported by 4 bolts and they or their weldements (not the fiberglass) are the weak point as far as I'm concerned.

4. No flotation foam

Some have added the stuff but it should be the right kind of foam. Not that spray in insulation stuff.

5. Fuel tanks vented to cabin area

Fixed with the new style. The fuel locker doesn't vent into the cabin.

There's probably more that aren't coming to mind at the moment. Maybe it's a good thing that mine spends most of its time on the trailer!

I'd add #6) Keel cable and turning ball could be more substantial.

I'd say that for the majority of users on fresh water lakes, the C22 is a fine boat. The standing rigging is rather substantial compared to other boats as far as I'm concerned. It's not a hull design for the high seas nor is the equipment designed for such. It is a compromise between a day sailor and a weekender....the idea at the time of it's design that was popular was that of a tent camper. Of course the newer model has lost most all of the "camping overnight" aspect. So my suggestion would be to , know your boat & know your required maintenance, learn to sail safely and know your limitations out there. Keep the mast pointing up ;-)

 

[Bilbo]

Item #16 on the drawing "Watercolors" posted shows an item that almost appears to be a one inch x 12" steel strap between the lock screw and the keel. If such a thing is in there, it would certainly improve the locking capability of the system.

Well, I don't think that that strap is the problem. It's that the locking bolt bends between that strap and the side of the keel as it gouges a semi-circular slot into the keel's cast iron side. This probably happens more often when people raise their keel with the lock bolt screwed in tight...and they don't realize they are doing it until later because the winch gives such a good mechanical advantage.

 

[HotChocolate]

oops

 

[HotChocolate]

I always follow posts/ questions about the C22 keel locking bolt with great interest.
My boat a Boomaroo 22, Catalina 22, made under license in Australia . It has never had a keel lock down bolt fitted. This was not apparent until after I had purchased the boat and was a cause for concern. I pretty quickly ordered the parts needed, from CD, but after 3 years have not yet fitted the parts and probably won't.
HotChocolate has only had 3 owners over the last 34 years. Owner number 2 has had the mast in the water. He was never concerned about the absence of a keel locking mechanism. This is partly why I haven't fitted the locking assembly. The other reason is it looks like a real PITA to fit to a boat that has never had one.
While the primary reason the keel will not swing on its pivot is its geometry, nicely illustrated by Jackdaw. Another aspect that prevents movement is that when the keel is lowered and sails are raised the keel is loaded up with a sideways force from the keel preventing the boat moving in a Leeward direction. The forces are pushing the side of the keel against the side of the keel trunk. The sticktion/ friction between the keel and trunk preventing any movement. This I would suggest would also prevent movement if the bow of the boat was raised at an angle greater than 30 degree.
After sailing HotChocolate in some pretty severe weather I have never had the keel swing under its own inertia. HotChocolate has carried sailed myself and my crew in 30+ knt winds and breaking swells of 2 meters 6.5 feet. I have also started when sailing in strong weather with the keel cable tight.At this location heavy winds create waves that don't get over 1 meter but are very short/ steep and it can feel like the your skiing moguls.
I don't know of any C22 club racing in Australia but I do compete in as many passage races as I can. Part of the process is to submit Cat4 or 5 certification. One of the questions is to present a schematic drawing of the keel locking mechanism. This always presents a slightly curly issue, as I don't have a locking mechanism. The explanation that I have had when placing a query is that the C22 is still self righting if the keel is up,. Can't confirm or deny this.
just my two bops worth

Sorry double post, not sure how to delete the first

 

[StanFM]

HC: Reassuring experiences for the little C22! If Catalina made some 15,000 of these boats, and only 1% were lost due to the feared "keel crash," there would be 150 stories of them sinking this way. Those who know about these boats--- are there really that many incidents of Davy Jones claiming hulls this way?

BTW, what is a "bop?"

Stan

 

[Milton.Audas]

I think he meant "two bobs worth". Way back when (pre 1967), Australia used the English monetary system of 'pounds, shillings and pence'. Bl**dy confusing it was. A shilling was often referred to as a 'bob'. It stuck even after decimalisation and the phrase 'my two bob's worth' is like adding your '2 cents worth' in the US.