Keel holes

[dwillems]

A friend has a 1985 Pearson 28 that he wants to give me! Unfortunately it has numerous holes in the keel, close to the hull. They are all identical in diameter but I'm not sure why they are present. Any help would be appreciated.

A second question, this boat has a minor diesel leak over the winter and it appears some of the diesel leaked through the hull and down the keel. The last owner says they never had a water leak. Could the diesel be leaking through the keel to hull seam?

 

[Tally Ho]

Looks pretty odd…and why is the keel/fiberglass ground down? Some explanation is needed.

If diesel is leaking from inside the hull to outside, then I would imagine water could follow the same path and flood the boat.


A free boat is seldom free!

Greg

 

[Captain Larry-DH]

Looks pretty odd…and why is the keel/fiberglass ground down? Some explanation is needed.
If diesel is leaking from inside the hull to outside, then I would imagine water could follow the same path and flood the boat.
A free boat is seldom free!
Greg

Greg is spot on. Need to know why the keel was ground and also why the fiberglass is darkened. Those holes appear to be "exploratory" or perhaps drilled to dry out water in the layup or find the reason for fiberglass discoloration.
If diesel is leaking it's very possible there was water in the tank from condensation, and it corroded through. In any event the tank will need to be drained and replaced. If it leaked enough to cause a significant stain on the ground there might also be an environmental cleanup needed, and might be some financial liability to the owner (not a lawyer). Some tanks are relatively easy to replace, but some might require major fiberglass cutting in the interior, and extensive rebuild. Materials alone could be hundreds or up to a few thousand dollars. Total all-in labor and proper fuel disposal are big question marks.
Both of those things are huge red flags, and I would run away from that one. The "bones" are obviously in bad shape based on the little you've shown, and there's probably a whole lot more that needs work. That boat is definitely a very costly "free" boat.

 

[Joe]

The portion above the seam where you see the grinding looks like solid metal, lead perhaps. You can see right through the holes showing all metal. Now.......... what the F? I don't know why it's like that. I would hate to speculate on it.... because if we were just guessing then we do a disservice to everyone. First thing I would do is ask the current owner to explain what was done there, and why. If he doesn't know and you are not serious enough to hire a marine surveyor then you definitely move on. If he really wants to get rid of the boat he (the seller) needs to have a legit answer for the questions you've posed. Otherwise he's just trying to pass on a problem.

 

[dlochner]

I can think of no good reason for that many holes in that location. That area is a high stress area which is why the fiberglass is that thick. A repair would be costly, probably more than the boat is worth if it were in perfect condition. Thank your friend and offer to help him take to the landfill.

 

[fred1diver]

I am guessing the holes were made to drain some water
I did something similar on the bottom of my keel last year to drain it

 

[dlochner]

I am guessing the holes were made to drain some water
I did something similar on the bottom of my keel last year to drain it

I hope not as many and not as large.

Drilling a small ¼" hole in the lowest part of the keel sump is not the same as those large hole right through solid glass.

 

[dLj]

Diesel running out - water flowing in. Owner says they never had a water leak? You can't have diesel leaking out and not have water leaking in when in the water. That statement right there tells me the owner knows there is some serious problem with this boat.

Let's see, big holes where they shouldn't be, fiberglass cut back in a major structural part of the boat, discoloration that makes no sense, leaking fuel tank and we have a boat with something seriously wrong. The owner wants to give it to you for free? Why? It doesn't even matter. You don't want that boat.

dj

 

[kappykaplan]

Run, don't walk, away!

 

[PaulK]

Tell him your online friends have warned you about polyestermites. They obviously made those holes and are just waiting for the boat to get back into the water to finish!
Are you sure this guy with the boat is a friend of yours?

 

[Foswick]

Here's the thing:

Holes in the hull - not a problem. Those can be fixed, relatively easily. Damage to the keel - also not a big deal.

What makes this problematic is that the damage is at the interface between the keel and the hull. That means that, almost certainly, the only thing to do is completely remove the keel, address whatever is going on, and reattach. This "can" be not as bad as it sounds, but it is almost certainly more trouble than it's worth. I don't want to make that evaluation for you, since I don't know your skills, patience, budget, etc. But, just know this is a major project. It is something you can do yourself, if you have some relatively basic skills. But, even though I have a high tolerance for inadvisable DIY projects, this is probably not one I would personally get into.

Does anyone see a possible path forward that does not involve dropping the keel? I guess, there are some unanswered questions that could change this diagnosis. I, personally, would just want to see exactly what is going on under there. The problem is that, once it's repaired, painted over, and in the water, the next warning you likely get that there was a problem is when the keel falls off, which is a pretty grave event.

That said, keels hardly ever fall off, even with gross neglect. I would just never relax on that boat, until I completely overhauled that entire interface.

 

[dmax]

I wouldn't sail that boat without dropping the keel and fully fixing the problem.

 

[dwillems]

Here's the thing:

Holes in the hull - not a problem. Those can be fixed, relatively easily. Damage to the keel - also not a big deal.

What makes this problematic is that the damage is at the interface between the keel and the hull. That means that, almost certainly, the only thing to do is completely remove the keel, address whatever is going on, and reattach. This "can" be not as bad as it sounds, but it is almost certainly more trouble than it's worth. I don't want to make that evaluation for you, since I don't know your skills, patience, budget, etc. But, just know this is a major project. It is something you can do yourself, if you have some relatively basic skills. But, even though I have a high tolerance for inadvisable DIY projects, this is probably not one I would personally get into.

Does anyone see a possible path forward that does not involve dropping the keel? I guess, there are some unanswered questions that could change this diagnosis. I, personally, would just want to see exactly what is going on under there. The problem is that, once it's repaired, painted over, and in the water, the next warning you likely get that there was a problem is when the keel falls off, which is a pretty grave event.

That said, keels hardly ever fall off, even with gross neglect. I would just never relax on that boat, until I completely overhauled that entire interface.

Thanks fo

 

[dlochner]

The problem with the holes is first the number of them, the diameter, and the location.

This is a high stress area, so just filling the holes with thickened epoxy is not a sufficient repair.

The standard repair is to grind out a 12:1 bevel for each hole and on each side of the through holes. May be a little filler is the bevel does not reach the bottom of the hole. Then glass and epoxy is laid up to the existing level. This is difficult enough on a flat surface but you have to deal with the curve of the sump also. Then there is the staining, if that is oil or diesel there will likely be adhesion issues.

Strip the useable parts and put them on eBay or give them to a second hand consignment shop. Take the mast and boom to an aluminum recycler and the lead keel to a srap metal dealer. The rest goes to a landfill.

 

[Jan_H]

It looks like the fairing compound at the trailing edge of the keel joint was ground back (as well as some of the gel coat on the hull), possibly to repair fairing that had become detached from the lead keel. This is not that unusual in regions where the boat is on the hard in below freezing temps and some water has managed to find its way in between the glass and lead/iron - a few freeze-thaw cycles and it sounds hollow. The keel joint itself doesn't look too bad, and I agree with Foswick that the holes can be filled and the area faired IF the dark areas are not diesel infused glass resin, which is possibly what the exploration holes were drilled to assess. If diesel has leaked into the bilge, it may have got down past the aft keel bolt and soaked into the filler at the aft end of the keel, in which case that needs to be ground out and repaired. If the rest of the keel joint looks ok and the keel bolts are properly torqued, this isn't that difficult to repair and I wouldn't write that boat off just yet.

 

[jssailem]

A friend has a 1985 Pearson 28 that he wants to give me!
Giving away a 40 year old boat is either very charitable or getting rid of a problem. Based on the very little evidence and your statement that this is a "friend," I want to believe it is charity, but my skeptic nature is questioning this.

Unfortunately it has numerous holes in the keel, close to the hull. They are all identical in diameter but I'm not sure why they are present. Any help would be appreciated.
Your posted images show that they are similar in size but not identical. There are 15 holes in one image and 12 in the other. Some of the holes go completely through, while others do not. At least one hole was made with the drill wabbling to enlarge it. One hole appears to go straight through, leaving a shiny interior. This makes me think it was through metal, likely lead, as that was a metal often used for keels in 1985.

I am with @Foswick regarding the need to understand the severity of the problem. I would be uneasy on the boat until I knew for sure what is relly going on. That would take money, time and likely a marine surveyor/engineer to give you a complete understanding of the issue.

A second question, this boat has a minor diesel leak over the winter and it appears some of the diesel leaked through the hull and down the keel. The last owner says they never had a water leak. Could the diesel be leaking through the keel to hull seam?

Diesel leaks occur not just due to the seasons but because something has failed. It was only over winter that it was noticed. You must examine the engine, fuel system, and fuel storage to understand what failed. Then, you must decide what can be fixed and what needs to be replaced. Again, boat money and time.

Just because former owners have not noticed water leaks does not mean the boat does not leak. I would be cautious about putting an unknown problem boat in the water until it can be inspected and determined sea-worthy.

The simple answer is yes. Diesel can leak out of a boat. The keel seam is one of many places where this is possible. This is why we pull boats up on shore and inspect the hull.

Here is a picture of a boat's stern. The owner commented that he had seen water occasionally seeping into the bilge—not much to cause worry. The bilge pump always cleared out the problem.

I was inside the boat and found water under the stern bunk. I pushed the water to the stern, and the owner was outside taking this picture.

 

[dwillems]

It looks like the fairing compound at the trailing edge of the keel joint was ground back (as well as some of the gel coat on the hull), possibly to repair fairing that had become detached from the lead keel. This is not that unusual in regions where the boat is on the hard in below freezing temps and some water has managed to find its way in between the glass and lead/iron - a few freeze-thaw cycles and it sounds hollow. The keel joint itself doesn't look too bad, and I agree with Foswick that the holes can be filled and the area faired IF the dark areas are not diesel infused glass resin, which is possibly what the exploration holes were drilled to assess. If diesel has leaked into the bilge, it may have got down past the aft keel bolt and soaked into the filler at the aft end of the keel, in which case that needs to be ground out and repaired. If the rest of the keel joint looks ok and the keel bolts are properly torqued, this isn't that difficult to repair and I wouldn't write that boat off just yet.

I found that the diesel blew a gasket two years ago and fuel, oil, etc. leaked into the bilge. Thereafter a local mechanic drilled these holes to allow the liquids to weep out. Apparently the boat has been sitting on the cradle for at least 12 months waiting for the weeping to finish.

 

[dLj]

I found that the diesel blew a gasket two years ago and fuel, oil, etc. leaked into the bilge. Thereafter a local mechanic drilled these holes to allow the liquids to weep out. Apparently the boat has been sitting on the cradle for at least 12 months waiting for the weeping to finish.

That's a rather brutal way clean a bilge. I clean my bilge often. I don't drill holes in the hull to let it weep out. There is nothing I'm hearing that makes any sense. What could possibly require sanding down that area as shown, then drill large diameter holes just to drain a bilge? Sorry, this is not even remotely making any sense.

I would not waste another minute looking at this boat if it was me.

But I think you are rather attracted to the "free" boat idea...

dj

 

[jssailem]

That helps. It sounds like the holes were drilled while seeking to empty the bilge. Drilling holes is one way to create a drain, but it is not my preferred way to address the problem. I hate putting holes in the boat that lead to the bilge. Now, all those holes need to be repaired before you can splash.

Have you looked inside the bilge? Is there any oil remaining? How are you going to clean that up?

My boat experienced a bad oil/diesel leak with the previous owner. The bilge was filled with seawater and petroleum products. I used petroleum-absorbent pigs to remove the petroleum products from the bilge. They worked exceedingly well. I then pumped the remaining water solution to a recovery tank at the marina. The marina handled the bilge water disposal. Once empty, I could wash down the bilge with a product I found at Home Depot, Oil Eater. It did a good job of cleaning the surfaces of the bilge. The remaining wash water was removed to the recovery tank. No holes in the boat were needed; it was just some tedious work.

 

[dlochner]

I found that the diesel blew a gasket two years ago and fuel, oil, etc. leaked into the bilge. Thereafter a local mechanic drilled these holes to allow the liquids to weep out. Apparently the boat has been sitting on the cradle for at least 12 months waiting for the weeping to finish.

That's a mechanic I would never have step on my boat! Mechanics make mistakes, it is inevitable they're human. This is not a mistake, this is incompetence and a lack of understanding of boats and systems. He is dangerous.

As I stated earlier, this boat is ready for the landfill or a fiberglass recycling facility. Help your friend salvage what he can, recycle what he can, and use the proceeds for something fun or to pay the dumping fees.