Keel Bolts and Surveys

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Clark

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Jun 30, 2004
886
Hunter 280 Lake Guntersville, AL
I anticipate having a pre-purchase survey done on a Capri22. Is it appropriate to require that the keel bolts torque be checked? My thinking is that if the bolts hold up to the recommended torque that they are probably OK and that if they spin w/o reaching rated torque, a problem is detected (and would probably kill the deal).

What say this august group?
 

BobM

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Jun 10, 2004
3,269
S2 9.2A Winthrop, MA
I never heard of anyone torque testing keel bolts. Usually just a visual for condition is peformed. The owner might shoot this down as the potential exists to damage the boat.
 

Clark

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Jun 30, 2004
886
Hunter 280 Lake Guntersville, AL
I understand about the owners possible concern but what damage could result to sound fasteners? Being devils advocate here, if they are supposed to be at 35 ft-lb (according to Catalina) and one applies 35 ft-lb of torque what is the issue? If they cannot stand up to that, then the damage is already there.
 
Oct 2, 2006
1,517
Jboat J24 commack
You will find that HOW you do the bolt will be the issue

Wiith removing the nut and cleaning things up and using new lube to torque the nut being ONE way of going about it

How things are lubed has a BIG effect on how tight they get at X

A big issue is a Torque wrench that is in Calibration as in my recent motor repiar it only took going from 30# to the final 35# to pop a stud
 

Clark

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Jun 30, 2004
886
Hunter 280 Lake Guntersville, AL
Good point about the lube. I don't think I'd go so far as requiring the removal of the nuts, clean and lube and torque to spec. Just seems to be the only way to get a good reading on a critical component - the condition of the bolts. Maybe I'm being a bit too cautious?
 
Last edited:
Oct 2, 2006
1,517
Jboat J24 commack
I dont think your being to cautious BUT what does the survey person think

Some Catalinas built before 1986 ??? had a plywood section in the keel sump which can casue issues SO step one would be to see what age the boat is and IF it has a history of this problem

I am not a keel bolt expert BUT most of the boats i looked at had clear signs of problems that were visable like large cracks in the keel fairing outside or signs of the nut and washer sinking into the glass inside
 
May 11, 2005
3,431
Seidelman S37 Slidell, La.
Lube and torque

First, if you torque the keel bolts without removing the nuts, cleaning and lubing the threads, they you are just wasting time. You won't know whether your torqueing to spec or rust. If you torque them to specs, and you damage something, it was bad to begin with. The plywood stubs in the early Catalinas do have a tendancy to rot. If touqing the keel bolts shows some collapsing of the stub, there is a major project waiting for you.
 

Clark

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Jun 30, 2004
886
Hunter 280 Lake Guntersville, AL
FWIW, this is a 1985 Capri 22 FK. I'll call Catalina and try to get some info about the keel stub. This is about the only issue that I can think of that could be very bad yet not easily detected. The owner asserts that there is not even a hint of seperation of the keel-stub joint and the survey should clear that up. I have a couple of pictures at home that I'll post just to give ya'll an idea.
 
Jan 27, 2008
3,086
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
What kind of keel?

A few thoughts....is the keel cast iron versus lead? I had a C-25 and it was a cast iron keel.
It doesn't look like the small washers under the nuts are adequate to distribute the loads of the keel. There should be larger backing plates, not sure if the bilge is flat enough to accept a larger backing plate, but I would suggest maybe you pull the nuts and washers and look at the bolt underneath. My catalina keel bolts had severe rust on them and would probably have failed but I sold the boat versus fixing them. Definitely not a high grade of stainless used on the bolts. These bolts look pretty good in comparison but all that rust in the bilge would make me want to look. Maybe the owner would let you remove one at least for inspection. Stress is equal to force divided by area, so the larger the backing plate for the nut the more area you have to spread the load and reduce the stress. As the keel is putting a large static and bending load on the boat having all the stress concentrated in the small washers is a poor design. My C-25 was the same, I'm sure the Catalina designers did their homework and can show a nice safety factor but the added cost of a couple of stamped stainless plates with a hole in them to spread the load would be pretty insignificant to the cost of the boat. I would suggest you make some backing plates or buy some, put some saran wrap over them and coat the studs with some kind of release agent. Then mix some epoxy with some fibers or maybe some squares of cloth wetted out to slip over the studs, then put the backing plate down over the stud and tighten the nuts finger tight or so. Once cured this should give a nice flat surface for the backing plate to spread loads into the keel stub. Remove the hardware, remove the saran wrap then torque it all up. Maybe add a little 3M 4000 sealant to keep bilge water away from the studs under the backing plate before torquing.
 

Clark

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Jun 30, 2004
886
Hunter 280 Lake Guntersville, AL
Another follow-up; Catalina tech support indicated that for pre 1986 models (this is an 85) that wood was used as a stiffener in the keel stub. It was described to me - working down from the bilge - 1/8" FRP skin, 2" ply, 1.5+" FRP. I may test drill to get an idea of the condition of the wood.
 
Oct 2, 2006
1,517
Jboat J24 commack
I would say the pictures would make me look REAL carefull as it looks a mess MY 1981 J24 has a lifting ring and is in saltwater and looks MUCH better
 
Jun 3, 2010
12
Hunter Cherubini Corpus Christi
I have a hunter hunter 30 foot Cherubini 1981 that has a leak of water from the bow bolt in the keel. The surveyor missed it along with other things.. but I need to fix this. Any suggestions? A drip every 5 seconds and rust signs. Last time I dove the boat i saw a hair line crack on the starboard side ...
 
Jun 3, 2010
12
Hunter Cherubini Corpus Christi
Hi Roger,

Yes the bolts appear stainless steel so I am not sure where the rust is coming from. AS to dropping the keel and putting new bolts in.. from what I have read this is not easy, and rather costly for shipping the keel to someone and then re-installing the new bolts. .. or is there something different on these boats?..
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
rather costly for shipping the keel to someone and then re-installing the new bolts.
Most yards up here could do it without shipping the keel anywhere. I'm not sure what you have for facilities where you are.

See the thread on chainplate life expectancy for an idea where the rust may be coming from. Your keel bolts are wet all the time if you have a hairline crack showing at the keel joint and leaks.

Oh yeah, look at the other keel thread starting here:

http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=101531&#post567690

Yes, boats are costly. Having a keel not fall off, priceless.
 
Jun 3, 2010
12
Hunter Cherubini Corpus Christi
Hi Roger,

I am in Corpus Christi. Next week when I go back down to the coast, I will see what is available locally. Thank you.. The cost if the boat flipped would be... ya priceless - possibly deadly.
 

higgs

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Aug 24, 2005
3,712
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
If keel bolts cannot hold up to recommended torque I would walk.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
The normal structural safety factor used in the construction/design of inshore and coastal boats is approximately 1.5 to 2 : 1. 'Nutherword most critical structures are purposely made 1.5 to 2 'stronger' than the expected normal loads.
FWIW - If there was ANY visualization of keel movement ('smiling' keel—hull joint, rust blooms on the keel bolt, etc.) then I would insist that the bolts be torque tested to at least 1/2 the OEM value if the seller doesnt permit full value torque testing. Stainless bolting is quite prone to crevice corrosion especially if full threaded bolt profiles and not 'shoulder bolting' is used. Movement of the keel/hull interface indicates that there is no longer sufficient friction between the two mating surfaces ... its the high stress imparted by the bolts to the faces of the joint that does the work - a 'stressed-friction connection'. If the bolts cant be torque verified, you simply cant rely on the integrity of the 'joint'.

Here's an example of why keel bolts should be torque-verified: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/43505-wet-bilge-more-than-just-nuisance.html
 
Jan 22, 2008
880
Fed up w/ personal attacks I'm done with SBO
And as the potential buyer, you have the power. If you want the bolts torque-tested then they shall be, period. If the seller balks, SEE YA!! Same goes for any other non-negotiable requirement.

It doesn't matter if the seller considers the requirement unreasonable (even if it is). It's your money and you need to reach your own comfort zone before parting with it.

Your risk in unreasonableness is you may miss out on a good boat though.
 
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