Keel Bolt tightening on the hard

[simmonct]

Hello, I recently picked up a 1979 C&C 34' and am in the midst of getting her back into shape. As with most C&C's of this era, the keel hull joint is gaping open quite a bit (pics attached) and I plan on checking the torque levels of the keel bolt nuts in the bilge. So here is my question: Since the boat is sitting in a cradle, with a substantial amount of weight supported by the keel, can I properly gauge the true torque levels of the bolts? It seems like the keel/hull joint would naturally want to open in the forward part due to the forces resting on it now. Furthermore, is it advisable to attempt to bring the bolts to the proper torque levels, assuming they are not there, while the boat is in the cradle?

Thanks for your input!

-Chris

 

[Blitz]

The boat's weight is being supported by the keel in the cradle I assume so it is best to torque the bolts while it's there. Mine is something like 135 ft-lbs. Does the boat leak while in the water? I'm asking since the gap is quite large. If you can see the keel boats then you can assess their condition.

Suggest that you search keel gaps to learn more.

 

[simmonct]

Thanks for the response. I am not sure if the boat leaks in the water, I just recently purchased it. I can see some water leaking down the side of the keel though after a good rain, which tells me that there is some leaking occuring from the bilge area.

I will continue to dig into this before taking any action.

Thanks again,

Chris

 

[lillia28]

Let me start by saying I know little first hand about this, but I heard a lot about it when I was buying a boat. Some times the "floor" of the keel stub was ply wood or other crushable material. Sometimes it is not just that the bolts loosened up, but the plywood is crushed or rotted. I would check with a C&C expert before just tightening the bolts. My friend's Catalina 30 had the floor resined to remove the "Catalina smile". The work was done sometime in the past, but was considered a selling point. I've heard stories (unverified) of O'Day 272 keels falling off due to a similar issue. The general understanding I got was that it was a common learning curve step, and was worked out of later production on several lines. Not trying to start trouble, I was very impressed at the quality of the C&Cs I looked at. It just seems easier to do on the hard, than in the water. I know there is a pretty active C&C owners assn on the web. Also double check the torque specs (dry or oiled), and at the very least clean the threads on the bolts. Gotta believe there is some gunk build up in 30+years that will give you odd torque readings. Forgive me if these are obvious points, but it seems that an extra half hour of work now might save a lot of upset later.
Lou

 

[berner73]

Not sure what the rules are in posting links to other sites, but I'll take the risk considering the implications of your situation.

Please check out post #2 in this thread. While you may not have an identical situation, it is likely worth considering this scenario as a possibility. You can try and PM the original poster as he's been very gracious in helping me in the past.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/71986-keel-bolt-bilge-issues.html

Here's another thread on the topic which may be relevant

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/76703-keel-repair.html

 

[Ted]

Keel bolts need to be torqued as part of maintaining a boat. It is common for the joint to open up if not. I'm not familiar with the C&C 34 keel bolt configuration but it may be similar to my C&C 29-2. There is a keel bolt directly under the mast of the 29-2. The mast must be removed in order to torque that bolt. It is the forward most keel bolt. When I purchased my boat, the first thing I did was to pull the mast and check the bolt torque. The one under the mast was finger tight but not leaking.

I was looking at the drawings of the C&C 34, and it looks like you may have a similar condition and your forward keel bolt could be hidden under the mast. It's easy to miss this bolt and more than likely it hasn't been torqued in many years.

 

[NYSail]

Would think that if the boat has its weight on the keel when the picture was taken that the gap would be gone.... that is a pretty big gap. Might want to investigate a bit more before you start turning the bolts as if the weight of the hull didn't bring it together i doubt tightening the bolts will and actually might break something...... just my opinion.

Good Luck! Keep us posted

 

[jibes138]

A few thoughts

Assuming the keel fit pretty well originally (new boat) then for a gap to occur like that there is some kind of moment causing the boat to rotate about the support position of the keel. In short is the keel only supported on a block of wood for a short distance? If that is not in line with the center of gravity of the whol boat then there is a tendency for the boat to rotate about the support block. Depending on how the cradle is sitting on the ground and supported this should not be surprising. For the gap to open up you definitely have some loose bolts or something going awry with the laminate of the keel stub. My O'Day actually had a very thick bedding compound between the keel and keel stub, probably 1/8 or more thick, as the bolts tighten it compresses this material and I suppose it gives it some "compliance" for shock loading. Not sure on the C&C but I have seen C&C owners scrape out the keel joint in the spring and recaulk them before as part of normal spring commissioning. If water is leaking out then it will definitely be leaking in when placed in the water.
Charlie Cobra did an awesome photo post showing rebedding a keel you can likely search on the site and find it, it was a few years ago. That would be my suggestion but not a trivial or inexpensive undertaking. It needs rebedding regardless of what else is going on. You might be able to have a travel lift just lift the hull a couple inches so you can see the bolt condition and rebed it. The bolts can lift way more weight than the keel but you need to tighten them in a pattern. Do not just torque one and move to the next, put a little torque on each one then move around adding torque to each bolt until they are all at spec, maybe go up like 5 or 10 foot pounds at a time. If in doubt and unclear of doing the work yourself get an expert, your dealing with a life safety item, loss of a keel can be quite catastrophic, check out George David in the Fastnet race this year, keel broke off and he spent 5 hours in the frigid north atlantic.